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🗓 Last Time

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🎙 Interview

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📇 Biography

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📜 Transcript

Matt Shao: [00:00:00] there’s so many different things that you learn and, And just absorb from getting to network with like minded people going through the exact same process that you’re going through when you go through something like an independent press, and being somebody that’s gone through both of those processes, is invaluable. The experience and the, the community it’s just a more fun fulfilling experience.

David Gwyn: We hear a lot from authors who are published on the Thriller 101 podcast and I also get the opportunity to share writers who are submitting to agents through the Thriller 101 pitch contest which if you want more information about, there’s a link in the description where you can find out more.

However, it’s rare that we get to hear from someone who’s in the middle of that publishing process.. My guest today has signed with an indie press and his book comes out in 2024, but he’s in the process of editing and revising before the book can go to publication. This is an [00:01:00] interesting perspective that, honestly, as writers, we can learn a lot from and we don’t hear enough about.

I’m David Gwyn, an agented writer navigating the world of traditional publishing. During this first season of the Thriller 101 podcast, we’re going to focus on building the skills necessary to write the kind of thrillers that land you in agent and readers. I’m talking to agents, authors, and other industry professionals about the best way to write a novel.

If you want the expert secrets, this is where you’re going to find them. Thanks Last time on the podcast, I talked to Ellie Monago about her newest novel.

Ellie Monago: so I like a big playing field for, for everybody. And I’m hoping that’s the way things are going because then that can hopefully get more people reading that can get more writers feeling like they’re not boxed out of things because there is a real fear of like, your sales track record isn’t good.

Right. How do I get my next agent? How do I get a book? How does the agent sell me I feel like maybe you don’t have to worry quite as much about that. You can worry more about the work that you’re actually producing. You get more chances, you know, more, more venues, more [00:02:00] chances

David Gwyn: That episode is linked in the description if you want to check that out. Today’s guest is Matt Shao. He writes under M. E. Shao and he began writing in August of 2015, immediately following the loss of his beloved mother, Elizabeth Louise.

His debut work, a science fiction novel entitled Continuity, is scheduled for release in December of 2024 from Wild Inc. Publishing.

Matt, thanks so much for being here and being a part of the podcast.

Matt Shao: I appreciate it. . I’m so happy and excited to be here.

David Gwyn: Yeah. So we’re talking because I’m really curious about where you are in the project that you’re working on. So your novel Continuity comes out in December. Can you tell us a little bit about it?

Matt Shao: It started in the wake of losing my mom. So that was what got my kind of writing path started and the story just. It actually started, it’s funny, it started, I was posting it like one chapter at a time because I, I always wanted to write growing up, but I never kind of like thought that that was kind of a reality that I [00:03:00] might, you know, be able to achieve or anything.

So when I, when I first started, I was just posting it one chapter at a time, just in a, in a fit of grief, you know, and, and. But as it went on and on and on and people like in my immediate social media network and whatnot, that’s kind of who was reading it. They were like, you know, you should look into maybe publishing this, maybe writing an actual book.

So that’s kind of how it started. And that evolved to me sitting down and just, you know, Locking myself in a bedroom for three months and making it an actual book. And at the time, I, I literally Googled. I didn’t know anything about the, the publishing industry or, you know, how to get into it or whatever.

Cause I came from, I was an insurance agent at the time. First 10 years of my life. And I literally Googled how to publish a book, and I guess at the time, since it was kind of like a grief struck process, like [00:04:00] my priorities weren’t really as catered towards like the whole publishing it properly as much as it should have been, I guess I was concerned with just like getting the story out there and just like pouring my heart out.

You know? And so when I Googled it, you know, I got all these different results or whatever, and I just kind of jumped right in and got set up with what I now know is a vanity press and that’s. Yeah, so that’s how I self published or whatever and that was so I wrote it in 2015 I think the book the first book came out in 2016 and then I wrote a sequel that came out two years later and throughout you know over the years or whatever I learned more and more of the how the publishing process worked and whatnot and I kind of realized like what What I would have done differently in hindsight So throughout that process I was part of different like online communities and stuff like that.

And I got [00:05:00] hooked up with abigail at wild ink press who saw the story like for because I never really I didn’t really do much for marketing and all that because like I said I was kind of like that. I had that sort of starving artist syndrome where I was just Absorbed in the actual material. I wasn’t really concerned with like, you know, at the time like, you know, becoming like a JK

David Gwyn: Rowling,

Matt Shao: So she saw the story and was like, hey we can, you know, this is marketable or whatever. So she, we got hooked up together and what she’s done or they’ve done at Wild Inc. is consolidated those two books into one. And slated it for a release in December. So that’s, that’s how that, that publishing process, that’s where I am now.

I, at least.

David Gwyn: That’s so cool. And so tell us a little bit about the project. What, what is the story?

Matt Shao: Since it was written in the, in the wake of losing my mom, I was in a position where I I was kind of jaded and in terms of, you know, [00:06:00] worldview, because I was raised in sort of a really polarized parental dynamic, I guess, like mom was to me like a saint, right?

And I had, to put it delicately, like a somewhat challenging father. So, losing her, like, I went through, I was in this process of grief or whatever, like, I, I even struggled with, you know, God, you know, blaming him for, like, taking the wrong parent and stuff like that. So, I was in a really jaded point in my life, so, and that trickled over into kind of my world views and how we, you know, We’ve built, I don’t know, like, I got really jaded in terms of how we’ve built, like, our societies and our just civilization in general and how, you know, at the time that, you know, I was thinking about, like, corruption going on and all these different things and, and how essentially bad behavior can sometimes be rewarded in society and whatnot.

So, I was really jaded in that. So the, the story itself kind of manifested as a, as [00:07:00] casting a lens on that. And the way that I sort of approached it was I mean, first and foremost, it’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s a sci fi thriller almost political satire for entertainment. I mean, that was my, you know, obvious first, but somatically it was, it was trying to cast a lens on.

What we’ve done as, as a species and just how we’ve created our, our societies and whatnot. So it kind of manifests as there’s an existential threat. There’s an asteroid that’s on the way or whatever. And, you know, earth is going through all of these conventional ways that you would see in a typical asteroid, you know, there’s a million of them out there.

Maybe like, you know, they’re going to, they’re building a ship that’s going to, you know, direct it off course and all this other stuff. So the main character though, is this guy who is a. Off the wall thinking, kind of bizarre, far fetched idea, creative marketing consultant that comes up with all these crazy ideas to turn businesses around with using these unconventional [00:08:00] approaches and ideas and stuff.

So, he’s also got this burning desire, like, within to kind of be meaningful. Like, do something with his life that, you know, impacts the world in some way. So, he feels kind of unfulfilled in just teaching people how to sell stuff. So when this happens, he gets to thinking, he’s like watching you know, I don’t say it specifically, but essentially a version of ancient aliens in the, in the story or whatever.

He’s like watching this crazy haired guy, you know, the aliens meme dude that we all know. And he’s like, he goes through his mind. He’s like, you know, I bet that there’s another civilization out there in the cosmos that that’s had to deal with this. Like, and then his mind, he’s like, surely somebody has done this before and and directed, you know, so he’s like, well, why don’t we get help from them?

So what he does is takes a leaf of absence from work and builds this signal to kind of broadcast out to the cosmos. Yeah. Our predicament, more or less, you know, he looks up, he [00:09:00] does like, you know, he, to make it sound like it was something like reasonable, like he has the income through his job to like build this signal or whatever, and he builds this thing where he just broadcasts our predicament out to the cosmos and hopes that somebody will come investigate, and then we can sort of ask them for their assistance, and then, you know, and all Hang on behind the scenes like the world doesn’t know anything about this guy like he’s just doing this on his own or whatever so inadvertently what happens is it ends up panning out and I won’t, you know, spoil the story in terms of whether or not we get help or yeah keep us on

David Gwyn: the edge

Matt Shao: but but what inadvertently ends up happening is the people that end up responding is the representative of a massive organization of, of think like Star Trek, for example, they’re meant to, you know, discover new species and all of that, how they’re all about exploration.

So that’s this [00:10:00] organization, which is essentially the galactic country club, you know, then Part of and they’ve all evolved culturally and and you know into a place where they just all coalesce and get along and they’ve kind of And evolved beyond like war and all the things that we deal with here, you know on earth So they come investigate and send their people Ship that’s a part of this whole induct what’s called an induction process and their induction program is meant to measure and gauge societies that they discover and Decide whether or not they’re worthy essentially of joining their organization Yeah, so, you can imagine they’re, you know, as far as the timing is concerned of when they’re coming to investigate us, because during, like, you know, during all of Carson’s main character, like, stuff that’s going on or whatever, like, in other, like, side [00:11:00] plot or whatever, there’s government conspiracies going on and stuff that the antagonist, the main antagonist is doing that kind of is, you know, more earthly concerns that, you know is going into.

Causes society to collapse, essentially, because what happens is, you know, this asteroid is basically gonna destroy Earth and everything, and, and what the antagonist is doing kind of makes that certain. So, he discovers there’s certain things that were going on behind the scenes, and this is part of that whole jaded process I was talking about, about like, corruption and all that.

There was a cover up, for example, of the timing of this asteroid that causes society to collapse. So, these aliens are coming at what is essentially our worst, our darkest time, you know, imaginable and determining whether or not we’re worthy of, like, joining them. So you can imagine, you know, how that all ends up panning out, which, you know, there is a sequel, which would have been the third book, but since it’s been consolidated, [00:12:00] it’s gonna be the second one that’s gonna follow up to this, whatever, but So yeah, that’s, that’s kind of where the story goes and how that all came to be.

So

David Gwyn: talk a little bit about this, this process. You had two books and you consolidated it into one. What does that look like? I mean, where, where do you even start with something like that?

Matt Shao: Well, it’s funny because, so it was written in 2015, and I don’t know how much of your audience, whatever, like, follows the whole ufology, you know, whatever, dynamic, whatever, but in 2017, they decided to come out with a lot of information, and They come out with this whole UAP program.

And so like an actual real world now, like they’ve, they’ve basically acknowledged that we’ve had these UAP UFO programs actually going on. So it was kind of funny because when I wrote it in 2015, none of that, none of that was known and it was still kind of like. You know, on the fringe [00:13:00] of, of society, whatever, like covered up and whatnot.

So now with like David Grush, for example, who had the congressional hearing in front of you know, he was in front of Congress, like a whistleblower talking about those and stuff like that, and all this stuff that these programs that government has, has really had going on. I had to rewrite a lot of it.

Carson’s the main character. When he’s doing his research and all of this, like in the book, he at the time was, you know, like none of that was known. So, and we decided to republish this book. There’s a lot more real world information out there that has been exposed and whatnot. So I had to rehash a lot of that and like scramble to make it consistent with what’s really going on.

Because it is meant, the story is really meant to be like kind of a mirror to what’s going on currently in society. So a lot of that had to be redone. So that was actually part of the whole process. That was, it was a funny, but, but stressful, you know, process [00:14:00] or whatever. But yeah, it was definitely an interesting thing because when I self published it, I mean, it wasn’t marketed to enough people to really matter it’s been a book before and now it’s like a different book, like, I wasn’t exposed to enough people, honestly, to, to, where that would really make a difference. So really, upcoming release is kind of the way my actual kind of debut, the way I’m viewing it.

David Gwyn: Okay, let’s pause there for a second. So far we’ve heard about how his book went from two books into one. And even how he went from self published to now a more traditional route. We hear all the time about how self published books can’t be pitched to agents because it’s hard to sell to publishers.. But there’s a few things happening here that I think make it unique. First.

Matt’s working with a small publisher, which means they have a little bit more flexibility when it comes to what they acquire. Second, this is a massive overhaul. I mean, so much has changed from 2015, as Matt says, and the book is likely gonna look very [00:15:00] different. And then third, even though it was self-published, it doesn’t sound like it had a huge reach because that wasn’t Matt’s intent.

So, these things combine to make it possible for him to re release it with a small press. In the next part of the interview, Matt’s going to share where his book is now in the publishing pipeline. And what he has coming up. Again, I think this creates an interesting view for writers about the process, about signing with a publisher and before that book gets published that we don’t often get to hear about. Matt also talks about what it’s like working with a small indie press and compares it to his experiences in self publishing. Let’s head back to the interview.

My audience is largely made up of writers, and a lot of them want to go traditional, whether that means independent publishers, small indies, like, you know, through the agent process, whatever it is. So can you talk a little bit about the independent process? I mean, what, where are you now with this book?

Is it, is it like full ready to go? Like, what was it? What was it even like kind of going through those stages with? An independent press in a way that [00:16:00] obviously, you know, you, you have that background with self publishing, but not in a way that was restrictive of what you were doing. So can you just talk a little bit about what your experience was like working with a, with a small indie press?

Matt Shao: Yeah it’s been good. It’s been great so far. I mean, honestly, so, I mean, the re it is ready, like, it’s, it’s, it’s going through the editing process right now. And I have a, you know, they have a really good, Wild Inc. has a really good chronology of Like when a book is going like what stages it’s going to start like in in in may for example, it’s going through the initial editing stages and then You know, we’re going to bounce back ideas on whatever suggestions or whatever.

It’ll be a finished product Probably i would imagine by like the august point and then that’s graphic design and all that but Let’s so so rewriting it and whatnot that was kind of That was my task. Like, I knew that I had to get it, you know, ready for post. So it is in a, in a [00:17:00] position where it is ready for editing and publishing and all that.

So. But it’s, it’s been, I guess I, it is, I do definitely have a unique experience, I guess, because this is, I haven’t heard of many books that probably have been through both stages, but like I’m sure most writers have probably been self published and transitioned into traditional publishing, but I don’t know how many, how many examples of an actual book itself has gone through those two processes.

So. Maybe that, that is something that, that’s more common than I know, but I, I don’t know myself of any, of many books that have gone through both processes together, but it was a matter of the story, again, when I self published it and with the limited scope of who I marketed it to, it was almost more of like a passion project for me individually more so than an actual, like, Commercial marketable book, when you go through like a vanity press or whatever, [00:18:00] like, even though it is available to people, like through all the traditional outlets or whatever, like you would, you would have to really specifically know to look for it to, to ever be exposed to it.

It’s not like it’s going to be popping up on your, you know, your newsfeeds and whatnot. The way I it is sort of, it was a really good long like learning experience that I, that gave me, and in hindsight, like honestly I don’t, I don’t really know if I would do it different. I am. Extremely thankful for the, the learning process in like how much I guess got like the intimate view into both realms that I’ve gained from, you know, from, from both experiences and having done it both ways

David Gwyn: yeah, it’s always, it’s always interesting to hear from different perspectives. And I’ve talked to people who are, you know, big five publishers. I’ve talked to people who are indie press. I’ve [00:19:00] talked to self published.

And I really think there’s a real big push right now for independent publishers in a really great way. I think a lot of People are recognizing that, you know, the big five tends to publish people that they think are just going to make them a ton of money and be marketable. And I think indie presses and I think wild link is a good example of this, of doing books that they just really like and putting books out there that they feel really passionate about.

And I think that’s awesome. I think it’s great for readers and I think it’s great for writers as well. And so obviously, you know, like I mentioned this, this podcast, people who listen are mainly writers and people who want to be where you are, which is the editing process. And, you know, you’ve got a, you’ve got kind of a, maybe not a firm date, but you know, your books coming out in this year.

And so, yeah. If you were to talk to them people who are listening, who are writers and are in the process now of either querying or looking for independent publishers or whatever it is, what do you think that, that one thing that you would want them to hear before they go about their day? What do you think that would be?

Matt Shao: I would say if I’m, so if I’m a [00:20:00] writer and I’m looking at that kind of crossroads of whether I want to like self publish or if I want to go traditional like in the press, you know, one of the biggest sign enticing me to go towards the self publishing route is going to be that royalty difference because I know a lot of people consider the self publishing route Because the obviously you’re not splitting that royalty, right?

I make, say, I don’t know, just for example, like seven to nine dollars on a, on a sale of a book, versus like two to four if you’re splitting it with a, a, a publisher. But, the experience that I’ve had through going through Wild Ink, The trade off, I think, is the community, the knowledge, and the expertise that I’ve been able to sort [00:21:00] of thought mine from just, I mean, just to put it into a straight up day by day experience context is the Slack group that I’m in.

I’m in a Slack group with dozens of other authors in Wild Inc. If you’re doing something, when you’re self-publishing, I mean, you’re basically on an island by yourself. I mean, you are doing everything yourself. You are, you’re doing the, the content, the, the, the creative thought, the, the marketing, all of those things you’re doing on your own.

And, and depending on how you know, your Google prowess, like that’s gonna determine. Sort of your success and and not to mention the ridiculously complex algorithms and social media things and and obstacles that we have to navigate when it comes to marketing ourselves, right? So [00:22:00] the things that I have in my book isn’t even out yet, and I’ve already like even with my side stuff, like where I like freelance writing and stuff like that, like, like Medium and whatnot, like, I made my first dollar sixteen on Medium, like, last month, like, that was big for me, you But, like, that was a, that was a milestone, like, it’s one of those things, it’s like, there’s so many different things, I wasn’t doing that before, and that was a recommendation that I had gotten from my Slack group.

So, there’s so many different things that you learn and, And just absorb from getting to network with like minded people going through the exact same process that you’re going through when you go through something like an independent press, like Wild Ink, you know, or they’re partnered with like Conquest Publishing, for example.

So, that to me, and being somebody that’s gone through both of those [00:23:00] processes, is invaluable. I mean, in hindsight, that’s, if I were at that crossroads now, invariably I would go towards the traditional indie press, unquestionably. And that’s not to detract from people that can figure it out on their own.

I mean, if you You’re able to do that, then more power to you. Like, you know, I envy you because I wasn’t able to figure that out. Granted, I had all that grief and stuff like going on or whatever, but still, like, if you can figure that out, then, then do it. And to me, it’s, it’s even, not even just economically speaking, but like, the experience and the, the community of, of, you know, it’s just a more fun fulfilling experience, you know, to do it with people that are like minded, that you get along.

It’s like a family. Really like being part of the family.

David Gwyn: That’s

Matt Shao: cool.

David Gwyn: Yeah, that’s very cool. And what a great place to kind of end this. So my last question for you is just where can people find you? Where can people look you up?

Matt Shao: Yeah, so I [00:24:00] had you, I write under M. E. Shao, that’s my, my pen name. You can find me on Medium.

I’ve got a sub stack. M. E. Shao words is usually, is my handle on most, most things. My personal website is again, I was jaded. So my website is howtheworldshouldwork. com. I post a lot of my, my, my, I’m big on, I’m a huge, I mean, I’m a. What is it? Like I said, the starving artist, I’m a poet, so I write poetry, you know so yeah.

So how the word should work. com. M.E. Shao Words. That’s, that’s pretty much where you can find me.

David Gwyn: Nice. Good. And I’ll, I’ll link to some of that stuff. So people have quick access to you. This was so much fun. I really, I’m really glad we got the opportunity to talk.

Matt Shao: Yeah. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

David Gwyn: Okay. So that’s it. Matt shared a lot about the process of working with a publisher, as well as the pros and cons of indie publishing versus self publishing. This is a great companion episode to the previous one, where we talked to Ellie Monago about the differences between working with an agent and indie publishing. Again, that episode is in the description. If you want to check that out. Reminder, I write a weekly [00:25:00] newsletter through Thriller 101 with exclusive information, advice, and updates you only get from the newsletter.

I talk about goal setting systems, productivity, and I share the best resources and advice for thriller writers from all around the internet. If you want to level up your writing skills, be sure to subscribe. There’s a link in the description where you can do that next time in the podcast.

I’ll be talking to the talented Heather Levy about how to organically develop backstory. She was so much fun to talk to and so knowledgeable. So be sure to subscribe. So you get notified when that episode is released and I’ll see you next week.