Does this sound like you?

You want to write books that represent the diversity of the world around you. But you’re just not sure how. You want to be respectful of other cultures but you’re afraid of how your portrayal might come off to readers.

Maybe you even shy away from diversity in your manuscript because you don’t want it to unintentionally insult anyone.

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon holds a PhD in justice-oriented social work with a focus on critical animal studies. They are a member of the planning team for the Festival of Literary Diversity, a faculty member at the Manuscript Academy, and a literary agent at Westwood Creative Artists.

Emmy’s background in social justice makes them the perfect guest to help us write diverse characters.

So how will you know if the diversity you’re building into your story is appropriate, accurate, and respectful?

Emmy shares some ways to ensure you’re on the right track. Check out the interview below!

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Interview

🎧Listen on Apple Podcast
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Topics

• Writing diversity into your books
• What to look for in an agent
• Using diversity as inspiration

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Biography

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Transcript

WLIS 228 ENH

WLIS 228 ENH

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: [00:00:00] I almost guarantee you that like, if you can be the weirdest thing in my inbox at any given time, like that’s the thing that’s gonna get looked at first. So yeah, I often tell people like, if yours is the most unique thing that I’m the agent that you would like to send it to because I will look at it, I promise.

David Gwyn: Does this sound like you? You wanna write books that represent the diversity of the world around you, but you’re just not sure how you wanna be respectful of other cultures, but you’re afraid of how your portrayal might come off to readers. Maybe you even shy away from diversity in your manuscript because you don’t want it to unintentionally insult anyone.

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon holds a PhD in justice oriented social work with a focus on critical animal. They are a member of the planning team for the Festival of Literary Diversity, a faculty member at the Manuscript Academy and a literary agent at Westwood Creative Artists. Emmy’s background in social justice makes them the perfect guest to help us write diverse characters.

I’m David Gwyn, a writer with a finished manuscript trying to navigate the world of traditional publishing. [00:01:00] During this season of the podcast, I’m asking agents, book coaches, editors, and authors, how they suggest writers go from the end on a first draft to signing a publishing. Last time on the podcast, I talked to Josh Stallings in a great interview about how to develop three dimensional characters in our books.

That interview is linked below if you’re interested in checking that out. So how do you know if the diversity you’re building into your story is appropriate, accurate, and respectful. Emmy shares some ways to ensure we are on the right track. Let’s get to the interview.

Emmy, thanks so much for being a part of this interview series. I’m really happy to have you and super excited to chat today. So welcome.

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: Thank you so much. I’m so excited to be here.

David Gwyn: Good. So I read your bio, you have quite the background and I kind of like round, roundabout way of getting into publishing.

So can you kind of talk a little bit about your, your route into publishing and into agenting?

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: Yeah, definitely. I was not, I would say the typical path . I actually, when I graduated high school, I started by going to school for journalism very briefly. But I was a writer and I was [00:02:00] very disheartened after my first year there was such a huge focus on radio and tv and that wasn’t really my speed.

And so at the time I thought, Well, I’m young and I. You know, like, I don’t really know what I wanna do right now. So I actually decided to take a year off. I auditioned for circus schools because I was in Quebec and that was a hobby I had had for a really long time. So I went and did that. That was loads of fun.

I got accepted. I did a professional program at the circus school in Quebec City. So that was a really unique experience. And then I ended up spending a couple of years after that kind of performing and also teaching. That’s how I ended up paying my way through my bachelor’s degree.

I was teaching circus. So it ended up being like a really great pathway into creative work. And actually I think that in some ways, like there’s a lot more in common with that part of my background and publishing than people think because I spent a lot of time doing creative development with professional circus performers and helping them work on kind of like the artistic side of.

And things like that. So so yeah, it’s not that dissimilar from the kinds [00:03:00] of work I do with books now. So from there, yeah, I ended up, I went through a typical university program for social work. And at some point I decided to get a part-time job. So I was looking around. Then I ended up getting a job.

I was super, super lucky at my favorite bookstore. Really loved it, fell super in love, like my favorite job I’ve ever had. And I started thinking to myself like, Well, if I don’t want to kind of take the professor track out of my PhD, what am I gonna do next? And I had been working research for about five years at that point, kind of on and off, but mostly full time.

I had been working at the bookstore part-time, like throughout my degrees, and I started thinking like, would there be ways to combine these sort of skill sets that I have and get a job in publishing? Mm. And I had actually gotten the bookstore job because of my background in social justice. We were like a social justice focused store.

And so I was really lucky to have gotten to spend a lot of time reading. So I knew a lot about the breadth of books that were out there and kind of the gaps in the market and that [00:04:00] kind of thing. And I actually heard about Agenting from the Print Run podcast. I was driving from Toronto to Denver at one point, and I was listening to an episode on.

A day in the life of a literary agent sort of looks like. And I started thinking to myself like, that actually is a lot like what my days look like working in research. And I was like, I wonder if that’s like, I didn’t even know literary agents were a thing. I was like, I wonder if that’s like a path that I could look at to find like a more sustainable career where I’m not.

You know, carrying a hundred pound boxes of graphic novels to offsite events all the time, , and yeah, I was just really, really lucky. Some professionals in Toronto Sam Hiyate at the Rights Factory gave me my first internship. I sort of like literally cold messaged him on, I think it was Christmas Eve or New Year’s Eve.

And sort of said to him like, I’m thinking about changing careers. Like, would you be open to giving me some experience? I have zero knowledge. Please help me. , . And yeah, he was the first person to kind of believe in me and cheer me [00:05:00] on. And then later I got an offer from Westwood to come and join their team.

And honestly, they’ve just been sort of a dream to work for. I. Never wanna work anywhere else if I’ve ever given the chance. They’re really wonderful. So yeah, I’ve been very, very lucky. But it was sort of a twisty route to get to this point. .

David Gwyn: That’s awesome. And so I feel like it, it’s funny in, in talking to people it, it’s almost always a twisty route.

Like there’s almost, there’s so few people who are just like, I woke up when I was 12 and I was like, you know what I wanna do, be a literary agent. It’s always, it feels like that

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: round up for agenting, especially like, I think a lot of editors because it’s a job that’s more. Kind of known and visible like you do get a lot of people who are like, I, I have wanted to be a writer since the day I was born.

Or like, I wanted to work as an editor since I was in middle school or whatever. But I think it’s, the agenting is kind of one of those jobs that sort of is in the periphery of like what people know about the industry. And so, or at least it was for me and yeah, so a lot of, I think a lot of agents find it after, some time doing [00:06:00] something else or like doing some digging and discovering.

This role that they never previously knew was an option. So yeah, they

David Gwyn: certainly are like that, that kind of like unsung hero of the, of the literary world that like, you know, you don’t know until, you know, I guess is, is kind of the way to put

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: it. Yeah, it’s true. I don’t know if we’re seeing more as heroes or villains, but we’re definitely behind the scenes by way

That’s

David Gwyn: a good point. That’s a fair point. So talk a little bit about that, that. Opening with, with Sam Hi and the Rights Factory and kind of that initial look at, at Agenting. What was it about that kind of first look into Agenting that really hooked you?

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: Oh gosh. I think it had long been a dream of mine.

Like I really love, I’m the type of like learner that really loves to know about the systems that are behind things. Like I’m, I always want a peak behind the curtain no matter what I’m doing. You know what I mean? I wanna know like how every little moving part works. And so I had been working in social sciences for a really long time, and then also in the bookstore, and I had kind of started to learn [00:07:00] about the publishing industry, about like the back end of how things function because I had been doing ordering for the stores.

So I had learned a bit about what sales reps do and how distributors work and all of that kind of stuff. But. It, it was sort of like burning the candle at both ends. I guess. It was interesting to kind of then get, get to see like from the beginning rather than from the end how the moving pieces fit together.

And that was honestly what really kind of hooked me. I’m. Naturally a fairly anxious person, but I can talk to almost anybody about books. That was one thing that working in a bookstore taught me to do really well. Something I love a lot. I think it’s something that a lot of people can relate to.

And so, yeah, it just became like, I was just fascinated by, you know, the idea that just a normal person who writes, you know, like who sits at home like I do and like types. A little bit every day, like one day you can help get that story, you know, in the hands of millions of people all over the world.

It just seems like a special kind of magic and, it still feels [00:08:00] that way to me, honestly, even like years later. It’s really It still feels like a little bit surreal whenever I get to hold a book that I help to make or help bring to life, you know? So yeah, there’s something like really special about that.

Yeah. That’s

David Gwyn: cool. So Westwood Creative Artists is where you are now and Yep. And and you seem to love it. So for people who are listening, for writers who are listening you know, why is this an agency that they should look into?

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: Oh my gosh. Yeah, it was like, it still almost feels unreal. to work for them in a way.

So Westwood is one of the oldest literary agency at Oh wow. Canada, I think it is because a lot of the others have kind of. Undergone pretty significant transformations over the years. Westwood was formed when two agencies kind of joined, but that was about 35 years ago now, like before my time.

So yeah, they’ve been around a really long time. Long before I ever joined, they built a really solid reputation on just representing, basically like very serious award winning literary fiction was their thing for a really, [00:09:00] really long time. That was kind of like their claim to fame.

And they continued to do that in a lot of really remarkable ways. I’m always, I’m in awe of a lot of my coworkers and part of that, Honestly, like part of that awe is the reason why it’s so great to work there because a lot of the people, there are people who have been agenting for Westwood since, you know, I was a toddler.

And so having that wealth of knowledge to draw on has just been like such a highlight of like my working life in general because people are so generous. It’s a small company. There’s only like even including our accounting teams and all of our, you know, support staff, there’s probably like 15 of us. And so.

If I send an email to someone, I usually get back, you know, word back from them within like an hour or two. And to be able to ask questions and like get advice from some of the people who are, you know, the most p. Figures in the industry in this country is on like a moment’s notice is like something I never kinda could have dreamed of.

So that’s pretty amazing. And then just logistically as [00:10:00] well, like we have you know, like an accounting team, an international rights team, a multimedia team. And we have, because the agency is so well established, we have prenegotiated like boiler plate contracts with most of the major imprints in North America.

And we have about 25 co-agents that we work with worldwide as well. Oh wow. And so being able to use those precedents and to have those resources available to me all the time, it really makes life just so much easier. And I get to really focus on kind of the creative parts of my job and supporting my clients and getting them opportunities that I could never get them without the help of, you know, like having that whole team behind me.

So, yeah, it’s. It’s really, really wonderful .

David Gwyn: Yeah. It feels like that kind of ideal scenario where you’re, you’re new, you’re figuring this out, but also like you’ve got that, like you said, that support system and you’re able Exactly. To, to bring a lot of expertise to the table when you need it. Mm-hmm. . Yeah, which is great.

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: And it’s nice. When I was originally hired, it was sort of to [00:11:00] fill a gap for them because they didn’t really have an agent that was doing like more, I guess my books tend to be like a little more out there, , like a little more quirky than some of the other agents at Westwood who do more traditional who have like more traditional tastes.

And so it, it. It feels like I get to bring something interesting to them too. It doesn’t feel like it’s just one way . And so it’s been really nice to be able to sort of say to them like, Yeah, I’ll represent like that super commercial book that , You don’t understand recently for example, I sold a book that was about K-pop that came into our slush pile actually for a different agent.

And I said to him if you don’t want this book or if it’s not your taste, like I really wanna look at it. And he was like, I have no idea what this is about. Like take it, look at it it’s all yours. And I was like, Great. And we ended up signing together and selling the book. Nice. To a great publisher.

So I mean like that, being able to kind of fill some of the gaps of. They were missing as well, has been. It means I get like a level of freedom and a level of support that’s like really like it’s just I never have to [00:12:00] worry about, you know, like stepping on someone else’s toes and that feels really comfortable.

So that’s really nice. Yeah. That’s

David Gwyn: great. So speaking of clients, let’s, let’s talk about your, some of your clients. So you. Or the hashtag Spine Squad, right? Yes. Can you talk a little bit about how you came up with that name and where that, where that has

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: come from? I love spooky books and before I was a literary agent, I used to run a book blog, well, I guess I technically still do, although I took this year off.

But it’s called Books Beyond Binaries. Mostly just like reviewing and writing about books that like I was a big nerd about reading. I had a pretty significant following. We had about 700 readers a month, which was like pretty cool. We were only posting once a month at that point, so it was like a nice solid readership.

And I kind of the blog became known for reviewing things that were like, yeah, a little bit spooky, but like, not maybe as serious as some of the other like horror blogs and things like that, that are out there. And so, at some point I had changed my Twitter username for Halloween one year to purveyor of [00:13:00] spines, like kind of playing off of like book spines because I was a book seller at the time and it just sort of stuck

So when I started like growing my client list, I was trying to think of something that like didn’t. Already exist on the internet in terms of a hashtag, which is like hard to do these days, . And that hashtag had only once been claimed years before by what seemed to be like a, like a, like a chiropractic group.

But they had not taken off with it. And so I decided I wouldn’t be stepping on anybody’s toes to nab it for my authors. So, yeah, even though most of, I mean, I will say a lot of them don’t write spooky books. So really this is like my dorky pun indulgence at this point more than anything.

David Gwyn: That’s so funny.

So what are you, what are you looking for right now? Like I, we talked a little bit about like kind of quirky books commercial stuff that Westwood doesn’t normally do, but can you talk a little bit about what you’re, what you’re

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: looking for? Totally. And actually I think my clients would appreciate that you ask.

Be kind of framed this way because I represent across age [00:14:00] categories and genres. So it can be hard to describe sometimes. Like, I mean, I think I have the longest manuscript wishlist entry on the internet . So, and most of that is just because it’s difficult to describe to people what I wanna see and what I don’t, because I would say it’s more like a like, A sensibility or like a commonality in terms of taste more than anything.

I never wanna limit myself in terms of what I will read, because as a reader, I read like, I’m a very veracious reader. I read everything. So, you know, like anything from like serious nonfiction to, I really love light novels, like anime adaptations of, you know, novel adaptations of AE shows, things like that.

I’ll read like literally. Whatever, . So in my agenting work, or I try to take the same approach because it means that my life is really interesting and varied. That way I don’t sort of have to sit down every day and work on the same thing. So I do have authors that, write romcoms.

I have authors that do horror or I have authors that are writing picture books. It’s all over the spectrum, I would say. when I’ve [00:15:00] spoken to my authors about like what they think they have in common, , a lot of them, I have a couple of clients who’ve said that they can read a book and know by the writing style whether or not it’s something that I would like.

And I find that really interesting because it’s, it’s not something that’s easy to say to people, but I think that one thing that I do have in common with everyone at Westwood is that , because of the reputation of the agency and kind of our , background in literary work one thing. You know, when I signed clients, I think the only deal breaker my supervisors would ever have is if they didn’t think that the, line level writing was kind of to the standard of what they expect from a book.

You know? Because I’m really grateful to be part of an agency that has a good reputation in the industry. And so, you know, when we send out submissions to people, they have, editors have a certain expectation for the level of quality. And so, when clients sign with me, they do sign with me, but they’re also signing.

Westwood. And so part of my consideration is always like, is this writing going to hold up with the other authors that we [00:16:00] represent when it’s , compared on a page, like would they stand up well next to each other? So yeah, I would say I’m pretty picky about like line level writing, but not in like a.

Like a super literary way, just in the sense that I really like things that are technically well executed and also I’m a bit of a sucker for people who have a background in poetry or journalism, things that kind of demand a high level of execution. But I still really like writing to be super accessible.

I will say that especially because of my background as a book seller. I don’t like it when people can’t pick up a book and enjoy it. So that’s always something that I’m looking for. And then the other big thing I would say is that I really like what the industry is now calling Trojan Horse books.

I really have. I feel weird every time I say that phrase, but that’s like what editors are describing them as these days. So , I guess I’ll roll with it, but books that sort of have an underlying, thought provoking or political or social message, but wrapped in a package that, you really don’t want to put down, you know what I [00:17:00] mean?

So I love like, fast pacing, propulsive plot lines. I read a lot of thrillers in my spare time. And I. Mean that to say that like everything has to have like explosions and bombs going off. But I just like for there to be like an interesting, something interesting that’s like really immersive, like pulling me through the book.

And then I also like when, there are elements to the story that, you come out of. , and maybe it’s unexpected that you learn something or that you think differently about something than when you first went in. And I think that’s what that phrase, the Trojan horse phrase is trying to get at

Mm.

David Gwyn: That’s so interesting. I I haven’t heard that before. It makes a lot of sense. so that’s so interesting that that’s something that it, it feels like our editors are, are looking for or asking for, or are interested in.

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: It’s refreshing for me too.

I feel like I, I sort of have always quote unquote, specialized, I guess in books that are , in what would be considered like diverse titles or, you know, authors that have had historically less access to the publishing industry or whatever. But [00:18:00] this kind of interest in those kinds of books is definitely being taken up in new and different ways, which I’m just really excited about.

It’s great.

David Gwyn: Okay, let’s pause for a second. So far, Emmy’s talked about the books they represent, but more importantly, and we talk about this all the time on the podcast.

They talk about how it’s important to find the right agent for your career. If you’re enjoying this episode, be sure to subscribe to the free five Minute Writer series. For more lessons on storytelling without the fluff, join the almost 200 writers who improve their writing with just five minutes per week link in the description.

If you’re new here, welcome. If you’ve listened to a few episodes, welcome back.

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Option three. Share with a writer friend. You have maybe a critique partner or a beta [00:19:00] reader, or just someone you know who’s a. I hope this content will help people in their writing careers, and I need your help to spread the word, Do whichever of those three things you’d like to, but it would mean the world to me if you would do one.

Thanks.

In the next part of the interview, we dive into how to write socially conscious books, what to think about when building diversity into your story, and any share some suggestions for how to ensure we are on the right. , but most importantly, they give us some mindset work to do around diversity, and it’s a really refreshing take on how to go about developing socially conscious books.

And that’s actually a perfect segue cuz this is, this is one of the things I wanted to talk to you about. Cause I know you, you have a social justice background. Absolutely. And so what does it mean to write a socially conscious book? What does that mean to you?

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: Oh, that’s such an interesting question. I mean, so I often tell this anecdote about working in the bookstore where I used to work. And we had, we were so lucky to have like such a. Kind of loyal customer base because we were a tiny little, neighborhood bookstore. I mean, even looking at the store from the [00:20:00] outside, there were often like posters and stickers and all kinds of stuff up, up and around that.

Like, it was very clear even for walking in the door that we were like a pretty progressive place. And so a lot of people came a long way from other places too, to come to our store because of that. And. Often they would come in looking for books that, maybe for them would be , really light simple reads.

But , especially around the holidays, we’d have a lot of people coming in looking for like, you know, they wanna give a book to like their uncle or maybe their little cousin who’s like just going to college or whatever. Or maybe even for them. But something that like, you know, was super, super entertaining but also, that had some sort of awareness that like when you’re reading a book, you’re gonna sit there and you’re gonna spend sometimes like a huge amount of time with this book.

Essentially you’re inviting somebody else’s ideas to just like chill out in your brain, right? Like, how often do we do that for More than, you know, especially in 2022. that’s something really special. It takes some people like six months to read a novel, you know?[00:21:00]

I think people in publishing sometimes forget that because we burn through them quickly. Often if we’re like working in the industry or even people who are like really avid readers, but like for example, my mom reads like three books a year. So that’s like four months she’s gonna spend with that book that you’re giving her.

Right? And so, yeah, like for me, I really want a book that is going to , encourage people to think differently about the world around them, and just open their mind more to different ideas, you know? And like I’m a pretty like lefty, progressive person, so I guess that’s my bias when I’m looking for books.

But in terms of the way that the books behave in a socially conscious way, I think that’s like the baseline for me is that I wanna read a book that is going to be. You know, I always tell people I want it to like hurt a little, to put it down , you know, you want, everybody secretly loves that feeling where like you’re, you know, you have to like, go to the grocery store, go whatever, like go to bed.

But like, you just wanna read one more chapter That feeling to me is like so perfect. And I was like the kid under the bedsheets at night with the flashlight, you know, staying [00:22:00] up way too late. So I want those books, but also , if I’m gonna spend four months with something residing in my brain, I do want it to better the world in some way.

And I don’t think that that means it has to be super serious or pedantic or even have like a specific kind of message. I just like it when books encourage people to think and encourage people to look at the world around them and examine it and ask questions, you know. And hopefully they’ll draw, good, interesting conclusions from those questions.

But like in a perfect world, but I mean, the first step for a lot of people is just being nudged in that direction at all, right? A lot of people live really busy lives and are not necessarily taking the time to think about the impacts that their actions have. So I think that books that can do that, like serve a really important purpose.

David Gwyn: Hmm. I’m starting to get a sense now of, of your interests and how, like it’s, it almost doesn’t feel, it doesn’t feel genre based. It doesn’t feel commercial based. It’s like, it’s very much like that weight, like that feeling [00:23:00] of a book, you know, regardless of genre.

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: It’s really interesting. Yeah, and I love, like, I mean, I have a really hard time describing to people because I love reading anything , and I almost guarantee you that like, if you can be the weirdest thing in my inbox at any given time, like that’s the thing that’s gonna get looked at first.

, because I see so many books , I love high concept books that have really interesting hooks. I love a good commercial thriller. I can dig into pretty much anything but. , if there’s something that’s super bizarre that I’ve never seen before, I usually use the example of the book Satellite Love that came out I think it was this year, but maybe last year.

it’s by a Genke Ferguson who’s a Canadian author, but it, it’s literally about a woman who falls. in actual romantic love with a satellite, like, like an actual satellite in space. Like not a figurative satellite, but she’s actually in love with a satellite. And I was like, if Genke had sent me that book

I would’ve just exploded . Like that’s the kind of thing that like really just blows me away. Or somebody that can take a really [00:24:00] simple concept, like I love Helen Oyayemi work as well. She’s, she writes like Neogothic stuff. Her books are super out there and philosophical. They’ve got like a lot going on, but like her most recent.

One of her most recent titles, gingerbread is literally about gingerbread, like the food, there’s lots of plot line that goes on around it, but that’s like the central theme of the book in some ways. And I would never, that’s not something that you see in a query box every day. So yeah, I often tell people like, if yours is the most unique thing that I’m the agent that you would like to send it to because I will look at it, I promise.

David Gwyn: So a lot of the people who who listen to this podcast or interact with me largely fit into this category of like, authors who have written a few manuscripts, sent out queries, got rejected. They’re in that kind of like, That train the run.

Exactly. And they’re, they’re usually, in this place where they’re like, this is the, this is the one I feel really strongly. I guess you always feel that way about whatever manuscript around. But they really feel like this one is the one, and, and I mm-hmm. , [00:25:00] you know, for, for writers who are already writing diverse characters and already writing socially conscious books.

Mm-hmm. . , you know, they already know how to bring that level of depth to, to a story. But for, for people who don’t have that background, who don’t have, you know, a social justice background, but they want to. Diversity into their books. Do you have any suggestions for ways in which authors can bring the diversity of our society into their books?

For sure. Even if they don’t have that, that, that really important

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: background. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it’s great to have a scholarly background or whatever, but like, listen, I left academia for a reason. , I don’t think you need a super, in depth, Scholarly academic foundation in these things.

But I do think it is important to bring it into your writing. And I think the easiest ways to do it, I think are honestly quite simple. I think a lot of people operate from a place of fear right now because there is so much cancel culture has gotten, very prevalent in publishing and that’s really challenging for people to deal with.

And I think it [00:26:00] compounds the anxiety of rejection in some ways to think that like if you make a wrong move, it’s gonna kind of mar your reputation as an author. And so it makes people think that this is something that’s really complicated and really difficult when like there are things about it that are challenging.

But I think that on a base level, what you really are aiming for is just to have your book sort of reflect the diversity of the world around you. Right? And those things can be really, I would say that. They can be really easy to do as long as you’re willing to put in due diligence to make sure you’re doing it respectfully.

So the ways that, I always tell people, first of all, I would avoid point of view characters that have Like marginalizations or sources of oppression in their life that you don’t share with them. We’ve heard from so many, especially BIPOC authors and readers, but I mean people from lots of different communities that they’ve just been represented badly in literature for a really long time.

And so I’m a pretty firm believer in communities getting to tell their own stories. That’s not to say that authors can’t tell stories that they [00:27:00] do have experiences with, you know what I mean? Like, there are lots of ways to enter into a topic, I think, without kind of appropriating the experiences of another person.

And I always think of that sort of, I feel like it’s that team building corporate model of like, you, you wanna like punch up, you know what I mean? So you don’t wanna try and take something from a community that’s not yours, but also you don’t wanna pretend those communities don’t exist. Right?

I think it’s great when people are able to write really good side characters that have, you know, diverse experiences or identity markers or whatever. I think it can be really easy to get beta readers and sensitivity readers to read for that sort of thing too, because if they’re playing a more minor role in your story, as long as you’ve done your research, like chances are good that there’s going to be less space for that to cause like a really problematic, aspect to your.

And then the other ways that I think people forget is just like the worlds that characters in habit are also reflective of the diversity around us. So you can integrate diversity in ways that aren’t just [00:28:00] people . And I think that that’s something that a lot of people miss. Like you know when you’re writing what kind of music is on the radio in your setting, or what kind of food your characters are eating or what kinds of events they’re going to, You know what I mean?

Like there are loads of ways to integrate kind of. Aspects of our world without actually having it be a central theme or a central plot line in your story. I always tell people , I grew up, I’m like the whitest, I grew up in Newfoundland. It’s a little island off the east coast of Canada.

I’m. There were maybe like four kids in my entire high school that weren’t white kids. It was an extremely homogenous culture these days. My partner who is also white and I, like, I, my favorite food in the world is Asian food. Like sushi is like, if I could eat only sushi for the rest of my life, I probably would.

But also, like we, like, I love Hot Pod. I love like my, I was recently saying to somebody that like, when I get sick, especially like. A good bowl of like F or like hot and sour soup, like that’s [00:29:00] all I want in the world. And it makes no sense really, because , I was not raised like this, but here we are.

It’s definitely one of my favorite, groups of cuisines. So like, If I were like writing a white person in a book, it doesn’t mean they have to eat a wonderbread sandwich every time they sit down at a table. You know, like there are lots of ways to bring diversity in. And of course, in my real life, I interact with a lot of Asian people when I’m buying my Asian food or my Asian groceries or whatever.

That’s a way that I think a lot of us live our lives. I think that’s why like books, like Crying in H Mart, for example, That book super resonated with me. I’ve spent a lot of time in my life in H Mart. I’ve lived a long way from home, I’m not Asian and the book is not written for me.

But there were lots of aspects that were relevant and I think that that’s true of a lot of people. I feel like, yeah, if people are able to just bring it down a level, the anxiety and really look at how you live your life, the people that you actually interact with, and then bring those kinds of just easy.

Elements into your book. I think that that’s like a really great way to be able to make your [00:30:00] book a little bit less whitewashed, a little bit less, you know, ableist all of those things.

David Gwyn: Yeah. Yeah, it’s, it’s interesting hearing you talk about it. It was reminding me of a conversation I had a few weeks ago with an author Josh Stallings, and, and he talked about how, and he was talking about it in a different context in like neurodiversity more.

And what he was saying is like to, to avoid reducing these Exactly. Characters to just that thing that you, you know, whatever that one thing is like. Right. And it was interesting too, cause he was like, not only , is it, misrepresenting them , and it creates, Two dimensional characters.

He’s like, it also just makes you writing boring. Like it makes you cliche.

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: Yeah,

David Gwyn: that’s point. Right? And you wanna build complex characters, like do it the right way. You know, build in diversity in that way. And just listening to you talk about that, it kind of was bringing back that, that memory of, of talking to him about just really great characters is really

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: kinda conversation was about.

And I feel like, I mean, in our real lives, very rarely are people building their. You know, lives and identities around one thing. Yeah. Like we are [00:31:00] multidimensional beings. Our lives are very complicated. Like if you bring in that complexity into your writing, not only will it make it more relatable, it’ll make it more interesting and it’ll make it more fun.

You can really let your imagination go wild. I mean, we live in a very globalized world. There’s very little these days you can’t get away with if you do it in a really respectful, well researched way. And also as long as you involve, Consultants and other people in your work so that you’re not just writing in a vacuum.

I think writing always gets stronger when you have like more eyes on it. So yeah, the more that you can do that, the better your writing will be. And it doesn’t have to be as scary as it seems, you know, Like everybody makes mistakes. I have amazing authors who, you know, I have worked with for years and every now and then I am like editing a manuscript and I like roll my eyes like

I’m like, And they know, I’m sure it’s coming before I even send it back to them. Yeah. Like it doesn’t mean that I’m gonna like get mad at them or kick them off my list. And also I’m sure I’m missing things, you know what I mean? I [00:32:00] work with lots of writers who have very different experiences than I do, and sometimes I have to say to them , I know nothing about this.

So , you’re gonna have to get somebody else to make sure that this is on point because it’s just not something I’m. Qualified to kind of comment on. So yeah, like I think we all have our weaknesses and it’s important to just know that and work from. Yeah. Yeah.

David Gwyn: No, it’s such an important message for writers to, to think about and really to, to reflect on.

I feel like it is one of those things that in, in interacting with the writing community, a lot of them want to have a more diverse book. And they’re just like, What, what do I do? How do I do? Exactly. That’s it. So that’s super cool. So as we kind of wind down here what is maybe one thing that you hope People take from this conversation or, or a tip for writers kind of on the way out here.

Mm-hmm. ,

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: I mean, especially because you’re working with querying writers. I always just want to tell querying writers , Don’t be discouraged. We’re in a really particular, I feel like the prh and [00:33:00] sns. Trial conversation thing has really brought to the surface. A lot of people’s like anxieties around the political moment we’re in, in publishing.

It’s a really challenging time. There’s a lot going on . The monopolies in publishing are getting stronger all the time. Merger aside, there’s, you know, supply chain issues are making publishers very, very anxious, which has a trickle down effect even to readers, I think.

And like there’s all kinds of other things always going. Just politically in the world. And also like reader behavior right now is a little bit less predictable than it was, before the pandemic, before TikTok, , like before lots of things and. They exacerbate each other, right?

And so I think it makes authors really stressed and they start thinking like, I’m never gonna get published. I’m, this is never gonna happen. On top of, there’s a lot of rejection of publishing that’s just like the way that it is. And I, so I think I saw a tweet the other day from Rebecca POTOs, who’s a friend of mine and also just, she’s brilliant.

She’s an author and an agent, [00:34:00] and she does amazing. In both positions, but she was sort of saying like, it’s so important to divest, your self worth from publishing. And I think that that’s so important. You really can’t give publishing permission to judge the value of your work as an artist or your work as a writer.

It’s such a difficult industry and it’s like very capitalist all the way down. I feel like the people who. , at least in my experience with my client list, it’s the people who are the most determined and who just don’t give up, who find success in this industry. You just have to power through.

It’s really, really hard and. Sometimes it takes like way longer. I would say almost always, it takes way longer than we wanted to, and so like knowing that your work is valuable and just having faith in it outside of , getting all the rejections every day is so important because it really is like such a subjective industry and it’s such a difficult political time for people in and outside the industry that, it’s a really tough thing to overcome.

I hope that writers know that people within the industry know that, [00:35:00] you know what I mean? And we see like the struggles that people are having. So I just always want to tell people to be determined. Advocate for yourself. Don’t give up on your work, even if it feels impossible because you can totally get there. It’s just really, really hard.

David Gwyn: That’s always an important message for, for writers to, to hear. I, I think, and, and anyone who’s, who’s still with us are the people who are invested in, in what they’re doing and really wanna be

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: successful. And, you know, I have authors right now who like, I signed them on a book.

We didn’t sell it, you know, they had to write a whole other book and sometimes that was the third or fourth book they’d queried too. Sometimes we find a fantastic publisher for the second or third book we take out, and they have a great career from there. It’s not always as linear as you think it’s going to be, but that doesn’t mean it’s not going to work out eventually.

David Gwyn: My last question Yeah. Is for people who are listening and want to get in touch and, and query and send you stuff, where can people find you and, and look

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: you up? Yeah, I mean, I’m on manuscript wishlist is like where my big detailed kind of manuscript wishlist, I [00:36:00] guess is . My submission guidelines are on the

wCA website and I always have my dms open on Twitter. So people are welcome to send me a message anytime. I’m usually pretty happy to respond and answer questions when I have time to, even if it takes me a couple days to get to them . But yeah, that’s usually the best way to reach me. Perfect.

David Gwyn: And so if you’re, if you’re listening and you wanna get in touch with Emmy, I will link all that stuff in the description section so you’ll be able to thank so much easy access to find. All right. Emmy, this has been awesome. I really appreciate you taking the time. I really enjoyed this.

Thank you so much.

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: No, it’s such a pleasure. I love doing podcast, especially getting to speak with author audiences is so much fun for me. I rarely get to do it, so it’s really, really exciting. So I appreciate the invitation.

David Gwyn: Okay, so there you go. Emmy shared some really great ways we as writers can and should think about diversity in our stories, but more importantly than that, they shared how important it is that we stay open to feedback that we shouldn’t shy away from diversity, but to ensure we tell our stories the best way we can while reflecting the diversity of the world.

We live in. [00:37:00]

There’s so much overlap with this episode in previous ones. I can’t help but think back to my Christopher Golden interview talking about doing research that would be respectful of the people whose lives you’re portraying. And more recently, Josh Stallings, who shared about his own experience with neurodiversity and its tragic misrepresentation in fiction, and how he suggest you build diverse characters into your.

I’ll link to both of those interviews if you’re interested. Next time on the podcast, we’re talking to Catherine Rans Land a serial killer expert with an insane resume. She’s going to share how to use real world situations to inform our fiction. I’ll see you next time.