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🗓 Last Time

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🎙 Interview

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📇 Biography

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📜 Transcript

Michelle Z. Jackson: [00:00:00] But you know it’s about the character for me and once you grab me with that character I’m gonna want to read it and that’s the key as an author, it’s your job to make me want to keep reading.

David Gwyn: Hey everyone. If you’re hoping to land an agent this year, you’re going to love this conversation with Michelle. We talk about connecting your pitch to your opening, how to maintain tension, the benefits of active voice, what agents look for in a submission, and what makes them pass on a project.

By the end of this episode, you’re gonna have a really great understanding of what agents are looking for in the opening of your manuscript.

I’m David Gwyn, an agented writer navigating the world of traditional publishing during this first season of the Thriller 101 podcast.

We’re going to focus on building the skills necessary To write the kinds of thrillers that land you an agent and readers. I’m going to talk to authors, agents, and other publishing professionals about the best way to write a novel if you want the expert secrets, this is where you’re going to find them.

Last week on the podcast, I talked to Heather Levy.

Heather Levy: If I’m not having fun with it, if I’m not, enjoying [00:01:00] myself as I’m going through the writing process.

I know the reader’s not going to enjoy it at all. So yeah, I, I definitely am approaching it as a reader whenever I am writing it. Because I want to, like I said before, I want to surprise myself and if I’m feeling something viscerally as I’m writing it I know that more than likely the reader will too.

David Gwyn: She shared so much information about her writing process that if you haven’t checked that out yet, you really, really should. We had a lot of fun during the conversation, and I personally learned a lot, so it’s definitely worth a listen.

That episode is linked in the description of this episode, so you have quick access to that if you want to check that out. Today’s guest is Michelle Jackson. She represents books that evoke heartfelt emotions and fervent conversations among its readers. Her mission is to mentor and develop authors, particularly those from underrepresented communities, and help them build a brand of quality and authentic reads.

Originally from Jamaica, West Indies, she is now a literary agent with LCS [00:02:00] Literary she’s also a published author and we’re going to talk about that because she’s got a few books coming out this year. Today Michelle and I discuss a submission to the Thriller 101 podcast.

If you want to submit your pitch and opening for the chance to get a full request from one of the participating agents in the Thriller 101 pitch contest. You can find more information in the link in the description.

Let’s go to the interview.

Michelle thanks so much for being a part of this interview series. I’m really excited to chat with you.

Michelle Z. Jackson: Thank you so much. I appreciate you reaching out to me and I’m excited.

David Gwyn: Good. I want to start with a big question first, what made you want to become an agent?

Michelle Z. Jackson: Well you know, I started off as an author first. Well, and even before that, I’ve always been an avid reader, and then, you know, becoming an author, you, I began to learn so much about the trade, you know, the craft of writing, and In doing so, you know, you get to know other authors and you get to [00:03:00] and you start working together and critiquing each other.

And I found that I really liked that aspect of it. It’s a great marriage between my passion and my professional life as an educator. And so I started helping, you know, other authors with their packages and all of that. And as they would help me and I would help them. And so after a while, I was just like, there’s a career like this, which I didn’t know.

And I was like, you could get paid. So it was just like a win win. And I was, and since I already was doing it, I was just like, well, why not try to hopefully move into this full time eventually.

David Gwyn: Tell me a little bit about like what genres you’re looking for kind of generally.

Michelle Z. Jackson: Yeah. Well, I really am that eclectic reader. I’m really open, but you know, my wheelhouse, I do love romance, women’s fiction. So getting those out of the way, thriller, suspense [00:04:00] mystery, historical, I really love historical. And even within romance, I read various novels. I, I love everything from the Amish romance, the historical romance, it just depends.

And, you know magical realism, a little bit of fantasy there. A little bit of sci fi. I definitely love the speculative fiction. I haven’t signed any yet though,

but, in the non fiction realm, I do like More on the narrative non fiction side. I haven’t, I haven’t like, I don’t know, I haven’t gotten anything that fully grabbed me yet, but and I wouldn’t mind cookbooks, you know, but I would, I would like true crime any time. Memoirs, you know limited on memoirs, but yeah, so I’m kind of open But you know it’s about the character for me and once you grab me with that character I’m gonna want to read it and that’s the key as an author, it’s your job to make me want to keep reading.

David Gwyn: It’s so interesting [00:05:00] to, to hear the kind of range that, that you take on. Is there anything, it sounds like the answer to this is probably character, but I’m going to ask anyway, is there something that in, in all the clients that you sign, all the, all the works, all the manuscripts that you’re really interested in, is there something that, something that they all have in common.

Michelle Z. Jackson: Yes. I think like it really has to pull up my heart because I’ve also signed a few picture book authors and I just have to see, I don’t know. I just have to see a management of the words character.

Definitely. We already talked about, right. But just being able to do, do magic with the words and, and just draw me into the story. It is ultimately about the character for me and the journey. And if I can understand the world that you’ve created, like for example, in fantasy, if I can understand that world that you’ve created, I am hooked.

I’m going to keep going. And I, and I think that yeah, that’s a little bit of what, you know, [00:06:00] draws me in.

David Gwyn: Yeah, that’s super cool. So I want to shift gears a little bit and I want to just ask you, because I know you mentioned this as well. You’re, you’re a writer and, and an author. And so I just want to ask you a little about that.

Like what, what’s out now, what’s coming up for you?

Michelle Z. Jackson: Thank you so much for asking. Well, you know, I write for Harlequin special edition. Harlequin Mira, and I also write as Zoe Marie Jackson for Harlequin Love Inspired. And so I actually have two books coming out in July July 23rd. I have a Beauty in the Beast with Harlequin special edition, but my big book, my first big, big baby is coming out July 30th, the Bookshop Sisterhood.

And it’s a woman’s fiction. story about four friends who are opening a bookshop and lots of drama in between. So it was a lot of fun to write. Thank you so much for asking.

David Gwyn: That’s really exciting.

Okay, let’s pause there so we can hear this week’s

submission.

Samantha: [00:07:00] Jane Davenport escaped a notorious drug-dealing gang two years ago, but when that gang finds and kidnaps her daughter, she must join forces with an untrustworthy gang member who has secrets of his own to get her back.

Chapter 1: Now

Jane did the right thing two years ago today, and her freedom had a new ring. It roamed all throughout her small kitchen on the warm spring breeze as the scent of toasty vanilla. It tasted like hazelnut coffee with each sip warming her throat, or the sun rising past the open window, both soothing her in their own unique ways. It came in the form of a unicorn balloon Jane tied to her daughter’s highchair earlier this morning. Everything fell into place in this new life. As her daughter’s birthday waffles cooked to perfection on the countertop, Jane packed their beach bag full of toddler snacks and towels. Everyone should feel special on their birthday, especially her daughter Olivia, who only knew of life here in Maine.

Any minute now, Olivia should burst out of her room and [00:08:00] giggle her way over to her highchair. Jane couldn’t wait to see her face light up when she saw her favorite animal in balloon form, holding the number two in its hooves. It cost a little more than Jane would’ve liked, and she said a silent prayer of thanks for her stash of emergency money. Despite the unwanted memories she wished would stay in the dark every time she opened the bag of cash, this was the type of occasion to use some of it. Even if it made her stomach twist.

Jane opened her computer at the kitchen table. She might as well finish her homework for her night class with this bonus kid-free time. Only a few more semesters and she’d be able to apply for the mailroom supervisor position. Being a clerk worked for now, it paid the bills-barely, thanks to daycare costs, but it kept her away from people, and that’s what mattered. Jane didn’t want to rely on the money bag. She needed, and wanted, to work harder for Olivia.

She caught the time at the bottom right hand corner of the screen. 8:30 a.m. Jane kept staring [00:09:00] as if narrowing her eyes more could change the time. She couldn’t remember the last time Olivia slept this late, but she knew the rules: never wake a sleeping baby. However, getting a quick glance at Olivia would make her feel better. Jane checked around the table for the baby monitor. When she located it, she pressed the power button. Nothing happened. She clicked it a few more times. Still nothing. She could’ve sworn she plugged it in, but with all the planning for today and the memories that came with it, it must have slipped her mind. Back in her room, Jane checked behind the bedside table where the charging cord usually hung from the plug-in. It wasn’t there. Racking her brain to stop the rush of improbable and ridiculous thoughts, she figured she left it in Olivia’s room. Sometimes she’d plug it in while they played. Plus, Olivia would scamper out of her room soon. Jane sat back down at her computer and pulled up her latest half-written essay on the Distribution and Organization of Mail After Hurricane Sandy: [00:10:00] Five Years Later.

The light breeze from outside brushed her hair off her shoulders. A nearby branch displayed its green and pink flowers scattered all over, while a white- and red-colored robin sang its melodious tune. She closed her eyes, basking in this life she never imagined she’d be living. Alternating typing and sipping her coffee, a few more minutes went by when an unsettling feeling crept up. The intrusive one she already stuffed down. Was it because today signified more than just Olivia’s birthday? That every time Olivia turned a new year, it reminded her of the past she’d left behind?

David Gwyn: I want to ask you first, what struck you when it came to the summary, when you read the summary, what was it that piqued your interest?

Michelle Z. Jackson: So what piqued my interest was definitely the, the little pitch. The pitch is what really grabbed me about, Her kidnapped daughter, she’s looking, Jane is looking for her kidnapped daughter and she has to join forces [00:11:00] with this gang member, which sounds like that bad guy, good girl kind of trope who has secrets of his own.

So words like the secret, joining forces, her daughter that’s kidnapped. So those kind of words are kind of what, like, draw, drew me in, and, and I’m also forgetting the word escape. I just thought that that little pitch was very intriguing. And that’s, I, I, I love romance, but then the thought of a thriller or action with it.

David Gwyn: Yeah, I agree. I, when I read that pitch, I was like, there’s, there’s so much happening, like even just outside the words, right? Like you mentioned, like, yeah, untrustworthy, like escaped, like all of these things. You’re like, there’s so much action and tension just built into the, into the pitch. I think that’s spot on.

That’s really cool. And, and so talk to me a little bit about this, this opening now what did you think was the biggest strength of these [00:12:00] opening, like 500 words or so?

Michelle Z. Jackson: Okay, so there was a line there that just really drew me in which was Despite the unwanted memories she which would stay in the dark every time she opened the bag of cash This was the type of occasion to use some of it Even if it made her stomach twist, I thought that out of everything I read She had some great descriptions some great visuals but that I think is where You know, i’m glad that it’s in the first 500 There’s a few things that I would do Differently, but I thought that that because of the genre It’s setting us up for the genre very well.

So I thought that that was one of the strongest lines actually In the story so far that I read.

David Gwyn: Yeah. And it’s interesting to hear you say like that. There are some things that you would do differently just because I’m curious when you’re reading a submission like this and you’re like, Hey, I [00:13:00] like this line in this line.

I like the pitch, but there’s some things I would do differently. Probably not like a ratio or a number of things, exactly. But like, is there a feeling you get, you’re like, okay. Oh, this, this is just too big of a problem. Or is it, is it things that you just know you can, you can work on? If you were going to go through edits with this author, like, is there a line you draw

Michelle Z. Jackson: Yeah, there’s some lines. First is, let’s say they say this is complete and a thriller and it’s 40, 000 words. I’ll say no. Chances are it needs some development, serious development,

David Gwyn: big red flag. Yeah,

Michelle Z. Jackson: sure. Yeah. So like that And genre, you know, this is a thriller if I don’t see Components of a thriller in there.

It makes you also go or know what’s going on, even though you probably Might read on but on average you have to do a lot in that first page first five pages But definitely a lot in the first page there. There’s a lot like I said in that. Second paragraph, there’s a lot of great [00:14:00] visuals there, As much as possible you want to use More active language that that really brings us into the scene. So for me, what I like to see is what we call DPOV, where you beginning to just feel that character and feel the personality of the character early on.

David Gwyn: there any Tricks for how to get an author there. If you have an author, you’re like, I really like the story, but we need to get further into the POV is, is it like the language or is it emotion or is it backstory? Like, what is it usually that, that helps?

Michelle Z. Jackson: Yeah. Okay. So. Sometimes when you read upon DPOV, it’s really writing in a way where the, where the reader feels as if they are that character, or you are that person in that story.

And so, the use of more expressive language or active language. Is the way to go to do so something, you know, if I were, you know, [00:15:00] which I guess I am critiquing this is also that, you know, there’s so many scenes that begin. And not that it cannot be done because even the bookshop sisterhood that I wrote myself begins with them all at a little table talking, you know, as much as possible, mindful of editors that see this, you definitely want to make sure that the writing is sharp.

So if I did like it and I was going to work with this sisterhood. Author, We would look at content first, you know the story and the progression of the character But then we would get into things with the craft like this afterwards once we’ve tackled the story component Then these pieces of how to make this sharp

so that’s why I said if you go into more the active voice, it becomes show. And a lot of authors are going to hear that show versus tell, show versus tell. And yet at times in edits, you know, you’re looking for the [00:16:00] management of interiority, you know, of this is what’s going on with me on the inside and a balance, you know, between narrative and dialogue.

So these are kind of things that you look for that, you know, okay, this is someone that knows the craft, or this is someone that has a skill with, descriptions. You can kind of tell early on well, I can tell early on most. Most authors, maybe our agents might be able to tell early on.

David Gwyn: Oh, that’s so cool.

It’s, it’s funny you, you, as you were kind of describing that DPOV, I’m, I’m thinking like that we’ve all had that as experience as, as readers where you feel like you kind of like fall into this characters into their mind and into how they’re feeling. And I think it’s really interesting because I feel like that’s something that we were all striving for and, and it might be, you know, like you’re mentioning that one of the biggest ways or the easiest ways to do that is just to Mindful of active versus passive voice.

Michelle Z. Jackson: To start out with. Yeah.

David Gwyn: What do you hope to see in the next few pages [00:17:00] from this writer that would make you be like, yeah, I want to read a lot more.

Michelle Z. Jackson: Well so I’ll tell you within even the first page here, you know it definitely has the use of that active voice, but we know that her daughter is kidnapped, but there’s the way how it’s laid out, especially towards the end here. It’s we don’t want it to feel convenient so for example, she says that you know, she, she realizes that they are the baby monitor wasn’t plugged in, etc.

And all I’m thinking of is you escaped because I know the pitch, right? You escaped a serious situation before and those two years have passed. You have a little one and you haven’t seen it. So I was surprised when the character then sat and said, Oh, well, everything is going to be okay. [00:18:00] So it feels almost this is where in my talk with this author, I would want to see realistic actions from the character.

It makes it feel like I’m conveniently waiting. To have you discover the moment that she’s gone So in that case you have to set the scene up just a little bit differently where maybe she’s actively at the stove cooking the waffles and then say, wait, she’s usually up, you know, a more natural, realistic progression, I think. And things that we don’t do where we’re not manipulating the story to fit our plot, if that makes sense.

So in the next five pages, five to seven pages, definitely, I want to see what she’s already done here, which is, this is my normal life now. I’m feeling at ease. I’m feeling that peace. And all of a sudden, I want to see the prickle of tension, like something’s wrong. Yeah. You [00:19:00] know, I want to see her dashing into the room.

I want to see that discovery. And then, depending on how long the chapter is, I would expect, The next chapter that we’re probably I don’t know if this is just one POV, but you know We’re probably going to meet the guy or she’s going to go to find the person or something I wouldn’t expect to see too much Backstory as yet I would expect to see that, that progression.

David Gwyn: Yeah. I love that. I think too. And I’ve seen this in published books too, but I think it’s something to keep in mind, which is, you know, people are going to read the back of your book before they read it. So that moment of tension of like, is the daughter in, in there or not, you’ve already given it away in your pitch.

You know, that’s going to be on the back of the book. That’s the main premise. And so it kind of, It draws out a lot of the tension and I’m guilty of this too. I’ve written some stuff where I have to go back and I’m like, wait, my pitch says what happens. Like there is no, there’s less tension there. And like you said, you know, it could just [00:20:00] mean that it’s the natural progression of she’s making breakfast.

You know, we as an audience don’t know when the daughter’s going to go missing. But you know, we’re already on high alert for that specific type of tension and moment that in the text I think that’s worth thinking about as, as writers, especially as we’re querying, because you know, agents are going to look at that.

They’re going to think about that. Like, you know, you only get a certain number of pages. And so I love that. I think that’s really great advice.

Michelle Z. Jackson: Thank you. So yeah, definitely that. I think once she sees that it wasn’t plugged in, me naturally as a parent, but I could just be that over anxious parent, or I’m running into at least eyeball, you know, my child.

David Gwyn: And like you said, you know, this is, this is somebody who’s, who’s because of the backstory or like the perceived backstory, you know, the one that we know about her, that, that she’s probably a high alert parent to begin with because of everything that’s happened and. Yeah. I agree. And it could just mean getting into that earlier.

Or, or like you mentioned, you know, have that progression where she’s doing work and then making [00:21:00] waffles and then the daughter’s still not up. And it’s like just reordering or reshuffling of that that morning too. I learned so much about openings.

Thank

Michelle Z. Jackson: you for saying that. I appreciate that.

David Gwyn: Yeah, so my audience, as you know, is, is largely made up of, of writers. And, you’re in this great position where you’re, you’re, you’re both sides. You’re an author, you’re an agent. And so if you’re talking to, to writers who want to be on, you know, a published author someday and want to have an agent want on all those things if there was kind of one thing that you would want them to take away as they go about their day having listened to us for a little while, what, what do you think that one thing would be?

Michelle Z. Jackson: I think, you know, I have so many little one things, but besides the usual, don’t give up, you know, is continue to learn your craft. And I think also, mainly because, The more that you learn your craft, it’s the better that your manuscript will become. And so if you can find a partner and get [00:22:00] that honest feedback and, and keeping true to your story, but getting that honest feedback, I think that that’s really crucial and really important.

You know, I’ve signed authors that Were a part of critique groups. I’ve signed authors that didn’t have any critique groups It’s just you know, it was just a couple of them Actually, maybe more is just just me alone me and my pen, you know, and so Reading a lot in the genre that you want to write is really really essential It’s surprising how many authors writing the genre and don’t read it.

And so yes, it would surprise you. So I think that’s a little bit of what I would encourage the authors to do. And also, it’s very hard because I have been there. Myself and I know that it’s you know, i’m speaking in hindsight But it’s very hard, but don’t lose [00:23:00] hope in your work and in what you’ve written because the rejections understand that you could Get you know, you can get rejection and it’s not always because of your writing It could just be I have something else like this I’m just not, you know, connecting with the character.

And so I think the more that you do to strengthen your craft and keep working on that and keep writing because it may not be the first book. You know, with my agent, I pitched her two times and got no. I think my third or fourth time that I finally got a yes with something else. So you always have to keep working and keep, you know, keep building and keep creative, I guess, is what I’ll say.

David Gwyn: That’s awesome. And so my last question for you is just where, where can people find you? Where can people look you up?

Michelle Z. Jackson: Okay. So you can find me as an agent at [00:24:00] LCSliterary. com and you’ll see me there with and how to query us. Through query manager, it is actually a shared inbox. So even if it’s addressed to one agent, we all look at it.

Unless it’s like a genre that we just don’t represent. But pretty much, we have the gamut now. So whatever you write, we’re open. And to find me as an author, michellelindorice. com that’s how you can find me.

David Gwyn: That’s awesome. So yeah, if you’re listening, I will link to that in the description so you can go and click that and have quick access to Michelle.

Michelle, this was so much fun. I feel like I learned a lot. This, this was really great.

Michelle Z. Jackson: Thank you so much, David, for having me.

David Gwyn: Okay, so that’s it. Michelle shared so many valuable insights from

industry advice to line level writing to thinking kind of broadly about tension and story more generally.

But I especially loved her insights around pitching and organizing the opening of your story. As a reminder, I write a weekly newsletter through [00:25:00] Thriller 101 with exclusive information, advice, and advice you only get from the newsletter.

I talk about goal setting, systems, productivity, and I share the best resources and advice for Thriller writers from all around the internet. If you want to level up your writing skills, be sure to subscribe. There’s a link in the description where you can do that. And if you want to submit your pitch and opening for one of the Thriller 101 participating agents to check out, you can find the link in the description for more information for how to do that.