---

🗓 Last Time

---

🎙 Interview

---

📇 Biography

---

📜 Transcript

Michelle Chouinard: [00:00:00] But nowadays, we, you know, your readers, really savvy readers are going to want to see that growth arc.

So, whatever that growth arc is, How does it relate to the crime? What is it about this crime that you’re detective, whether it’s a professional detective, amateur detective, whatever? What is it about the crime that is pushing them in a way that is uncomfortable?

David Gwyn: Welcome back to another episode of the Thriller 101 podcast, where we dive deep into the craft of writing suspense, mystery, and thriller novels. Today we’re talking about something that I believe can make or break a great thriller, balancing the professional and personal threads in your story. I’ve talked about this before on the podcast, and I got the opportunity to ask my guest today how she pulled it off so masterfully in her new novel.

Now, I’m a major proponent of this technique because I think it adds that emotional resonance that goes beyond, you know, what you’re just plot twists and red herrings. Don’t get me wrong, I mean, I love a good plot twist, and I’m a huge proponent of nailing the plot of your story. However, to build in [00:01:00] that deeper emotional layer,

your story might need a little bit more than just a great plot.

I’m David Gwyn, a writer navigating the world of traditional publishing. During this second season of the Thriller 101 podcast, we’re going to continue our focus on building the skills necessary to write the kinds of thrillers that land you and agent and readers. During this season, I’ll be sharing some insights while also talking to agents, authors, and other publishing professionals about the best way to write a novel. If you want the expert secrets, Thriller 101 is where you’re going to find them

I See a lot of writers, especially in thrillers and mysteries, nailing the kind of plot heavy elements like, you know, perfecting their antagonists, delivering the all important plot twists and red herrings, but they struggle with the emotional backbone behind the story. That important emotional tension is where the real magic happens for readers.

Today, my guest is going to show us how to make that magic work in our own writing. By the end of the episode, you’ll know how to seamlessly weave your character’s professional life into their personal one. while creating stakes that resonate [00:02:00] on both storylines, the professional and the personal. Michelle Chouinard has written eight previous USA Today and Publisher’s Weekly best selling mysteries under a different name. She has a Ph. D. in developmental psychology from Stanford University

And was one of UC Merced’s founding faculty members. Michelle enjoys caffeine in all forms, amateur genealogy, baking, and anything to do with Halloween or the zombie apocalypse. And she’s the writer of the new book, which is out today, The Serial Killer Guide to San Francisco.

Let’s get into the interview.

Michelle, thanks so much for being here on the thriller one on one podcast.

Michelle Chouinard: Thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited about this.

David Gwyn: Yeah, I’m really looking forward to it. So your novel, The Serial Killer Guide to San Francisco will be out by the time people hear this. How do you think you feel right now?

Michelle Chouinard: Well, I pretty much always feel like hopeful and anxious and, and I mean, it’s not, it’s not a surprise that I, it’s not a coincidence that I write murder mysteries because I can always come up with some bad worst case scenarios.

So I’m [00:03:00] hoping that I’m on the top of the world and that people are enjoying the book and that I’m celebrating.

David Gwyn: Yeah, that’s awesome. So can you tell us people who are listening, can you tell us what it’s about?

Michelle Chouinard: Okay. So Serial Killer Guide to San Francisco is about Caprice Anzio, who is a true crime tour guide in San Francisco.

She’s also the granddaughter of a convicted serial killer. His his moniker was Overkill Bill because he did a whole bunch of things, bad things to his victim. Sliced stabbed and bludgeoned. So he’s overkill, bill.

And he always said that he was innocent and she wanted to believe that she still wants to believe that. So when a copycat killer starts killing again and victims are coming up with the same methodology of course the police are very interested to hear what. It is that she knows about these things and she finds herself kind of caught up in this and her hope is to make lemons out of lemonade and improve by the end of it that her grandfather was innocent.

David Gwyn: [00:04:00] Yeah, great. So where did this story come from? What was the idea behind this?

Michelle Chouinard: Okay. So it’s, it’s possibly the most boring story ever during the pandemic or, you know, towards kind of the middle time of the pandemic, I had to take my cat to the vet and, you know, back then you weren’t allowed to go inside. So I’m sitting in my car and they had to do a whole bunch of stuff.

So it was like three or four hours. So what did I do? I put on my true crime podcast. because that’s what I do. I love, I love me some true crime podcasts. And there was one about this killer called the doodler and he he’s still at large, actually the San Francisco, the SFPD still have a reward out for him.

And so I was listening to the podcast and there are a bunch of places that I recognized as they were talking about these locations. And so I’m laying back sitting there thinking, you know, I should go like, I wish that someone would give like a, a, a tour of this and I could go to the places and I could actually see them as they were talking about it.

And then like, like a serial killer tour guide of San Francisco. And that’s where the [00:05:00] idea came to me. And, and so then I was off to the races and starting to jot down notes about, well, who would that person be? Who would be invested enough? in this sort of thing that they would want to spend their time doing that.

What would that look like? What would her life be that would lead her to that? And so I kind of just went from there. There’s one other actual influence though, that, that is really important that I want to mention. There was a true crime documentary that I was watching by some Canadian filmmakers who it wasn’t, they’re not true crime documentarians normally.

They’re sort of funny. They do funny things. They thought it would be fun to take a stab at looking at something in their, You know, where they grew up. And as they did it, they sort of discovered that everybody that they talked to, and this is decades and decades and decades old, this crime, that everybody they talked to, you know, people are related to the victims, people are related to the potential suspects, and that it, there were a lot of raw nerves, and there were a lot of implications for opening up, you know, this line of questioning again.

[00:06:00] And you know, they started to feel very, very bad. And now I’m a big believer that true crime podcasts help solve crimes. But I also think that, that, and I saw, you know, in this documentary that there has to be this responsibility that comes along with how we do it. And so I really wanted that to be a big theme of the book for, for Capri that, you know, this is her family.

So you could argue that if anybody has a right, she does. But there are other people involved. And what does it mean to open this up and start asking these questions?

David Gwyn: Yeah, I think it’s so interesting that like thematic undertone in your novel. And I’m seeing it more and more with stories that take on fictionalized versions of true crime, but true crime as well.

That idea of like, what, you know, What does it say about us that we consume true crime? Like I’m the same way I can listen to a true crime podcast. I don’t, it’s funny whenever I take long car rides if I know my, my daughters are gonna fall asleep, I tell my wife, like, oh I’ll drive, you, you sleep, you sleep, and I pop on a podcast and like, I just hope that they all, all three of them, I hope they all stay asleep because, you know, it’s [00:07:00] so intriguing and interesting and I think it’s the same reason we write fiction because those are the types of stories that we’re drawn to.

But I do think it’s really interesting that you, you bring that up and I think I’m seeing that more and more people Thinking about , what is the ethical way of handling true crime stories and I think that’s really, really powerful. And kind of in that vein, maybe, maybe a little bit different because I know you write some different stuff.

So, what are you working on now?

Michelle Chouinard: So yeah, my previous series was they’re, it’s, they’re police procedural and there are lots of serial killer y stuff. Obviously I, this is something that I’m, I’m drawn to. I have psychological questions about these kinds of things. Much, much darker, a little bit more noir, a little bit more serious.

And so the serial killer guide has a dark humor to it. And for me, it’s very much something that I need to kind of keep my sanity. when writing about these topics a lot. So being able to do it in a respectful way, but a way that allows you to sort of tap into you know, the, the, the lighter side of it, I think was, was very helpful to me.

[00:08:00] But now I’ve written, I’m, I’m actually editing the second book in the series. So tentatively right now it’s, it’s called the serial killer guide to the Barbary coast. The Barbary coast is what San Francisco was known as back in the old rush days. And but now I’m also going to be writing, I started writing a standalone psychological thriller.

My working title for it is called The Inheritance and I’m calling it, And Then There Were None Meets Fall of the House of Usher. So it’s this very messed up family goes away on this week retreat and only one person comes out alive.

David Gwyn: Oh, super interesting. So you’re, it sounds like you’re. juggling a couple different projects.

Are they all in different stages of writing or do you kind of have things going at the same stage as you’re writing?

Michelle Chouinard: Yeah, they’re, they’re all in different stages, generally speaking. So I, I’m a, I, one of my, the best pieces of advice I ever got was in Stephen King’s on writing. And he says, finish a project and then immediately start the next one and give yourself, you know, a few weeks or whatever before going back to that.

So [00:09:00] that’s sort of been always been my MO. I finished the one book. And as that one sitting there doing whatever with my editor or what have you, I’m writing the next one. And then, you know, always, I’m lucky enough now to be a contracted writer. So whatever’s next on the contract always takes the priority.

Right. But then when I find that time, well, well, it’s with my editor or whatever, I’m doing the next thing. And I’m sure you have this. I’ve never met a writer that doesn’t have 20, 000 more ideas than we will ever have time to write. So this just gives me this feeling of agency to be able to move on to the next thing.

David Gwyn: Yeah, that’s super cool. That’s great. Yeah, getting into a pipeline is, must be a nice feeling where you feel like you know what the next thing is and the next thing is the next thing is that’s really great.

Okay, let’s pause there for a second. I always love hearing where writers get their ideas and having talked to a lot of writers I can comfortably say that there is no singular way that they all use to come up with a book idea.

However, there does seem to be a formula, and the closest I can get to [00:10:00] explaining what I’ve found is this. There’s almost always two or three ideas smashed together.

with pieces of each making it in and other pieces not making the cut. And then those two or three ideas, after they’re slammed together,

they’re added to the conventions of a traditional thriller, mystery, or suspense novel. And that’s it. So if you’re a writer looking for your next great idea, I would say this. Make note of things that interest you and ideas and pieces and fragments of stories that you find really compelling and interesting and then try to take those ideas and just slam them together because it’s where they overlap that seems to be where successful writers find their book ideas.

Okay, in the next part of the interview, we’re going to talk about why it’s important not to shield your characters from personal conflict and how the tension between these two aspects can actually drive your plot forward in unexpected ways.

So if you want to take your thriller writing to the next level, stay tuned. Because Michelle is going to share some tips that could [00:11:00] completely transform the way you approach your writing.

Okay, before we get back into the interview, I want to tell you about this community I’m building for Thriller 101. I’m still in the process of building it but I can say this I think you’re gonna really like it If you’re a serious writer trying to level up by finding an agent and writing your next great novel

Okay, there is a catch though. I’m limiting the number of people I let in as founding members, so if you want to be the first to know about what it takes to be a founding member and you want the inside track on the community and be the first to hear about what’s going on with it,

and sign up right away because you’re not going to want to miss this. Okay, so let’s head back to the interview.

And so a lot of people who listen to this podcast are writers And I, I’ve talked about previously and I’m a huge proponent of what I call like the professional and personal threads in a mystery and thriller and the professional being like kind of like traditional thriller or mystery plot, right?

Like [00:12:00] usually a dead body, person missing, something like that. Like that’s like the professional. And then the personal is like their relationship with other people in their lives. And so I think Thriller and Mystery, even more so than Suspense, because I think that lends itself more to like the personal side of, of relationships, not that I, I want to get into that whole argument because that could be a whole thing on its own, but I think that, that Thriller and Mystery are unique because people are different.

are so focused on plot. I think writers think a lot about plot. And we, you know, we talk about twists and red herrings and antagonists, which are all obviously very important. But something that I see a lot of writers struggling with, which is the kind of like emotional resonance behind the plot.

Like, what is the emotional connection that we as readers have to the people who are engaging in this plot? And I am going to hop off my soapbox in just a second, I promise, but I feel like some context. So the thing I think that your novel did so well was balancing your main character’s kind of professional, this like true crime enthusiast, tour guide, podcaster, professional aspect, with her personal life, right?

Like needing the money for her and her [00:13:00] daughter. And, and it’s not just that like, that there, there is a personal life. Like I think some people are just like, yeah, my The Mighty Mane character is like married, but they have like a really loving relationship and a supportive relationship with their spouse and I’m like Yeah, but there’s no tension there.

And that’s, I’m not saying that that’s always the case, that it needs to be this way, but I think that having the tension in both aspects is really, really powerful storytelling. And so my question, as I’m coming around to it.

Michelle Chouinard: Thank you, by the way, for saying I did it well. I appreciate that.

David Gwyn: Yes. Well, you did.

You did. You did it very well. So the thing I’m really curious about is was that part of For you, when you’re writing, is that something that you think about? Is that something that you plot around? Or is that something that just kind of happens naturally?

Michelle Chouinard: It’s very much something I think about.

Another piece of great advice I got, and I’ll be honest, I can’t remember where I originally got this one, but I’ve heard several people say it in one form or another now. Which is that, good mysteries, the detective works on the crime. Great mysteries, the crime works on the detective.

And so for me, I always ask [00:14:00] myself, what is the personal growth that my character, because your character, I mean, I guess back in the day of classic, you had detectives that didn’t necessarily have a personal growth arc in every book, right? But nowadays, we, you know, your readers, really savvy readers are going to want to see that growth arc.

So, whatever that growth arc is, How does it relate to the crime? What is it about this crime that you’re detective, whether it’s a professional detective, amateur detective, whatever? What is it about the crime that is pushing them in a way that is uncomfortable? So in Capri’s case it’s pretty early on in the book.

You find out that her father does not want her looking into her grandfather’s you know, supposed murders. doesn’t want it at all and that she’s going to have, she’s going to mess up her relationship with her father if she does this. So for most of her life, she’s been in this place where she’s got this tension of wanting to know whether her grandfather was really guilty and wanting to maintain a relationship with her father, like most of us do.

[00:15:00] Right. So what could I do that would push her out of that and make her have to go into the uncomfortable territory out of this comfortable, I’m just in denial because my father wants me to be. So, and I’m also a big believer that, you know, why have one thing when you can have two things or three things in writing?

So, you know, traditional traditional advice is your scene, every scene should do two things, right? Great, but a scene that does four things or five things, right? So, what’s that source of tension? Well, if you can have two sources of tension, great. So Boom. Capri’s got this mother in law that basically puts her in a financial situation.

And so now she’s got to figure out how to make money. And the most obvious way for her to make money is to write this book about her grandfather that she’s been putting off for, you know, 30 years. And then, oh my gosh, this mother in law that she hates for putting her in this position now shows up dead.

Oh, using the same methodology. Oh. So now you’ve got all of the, I I always look for, is there another way I can compile something on this character? And I, I joke about my [00:16:00] characters are like my friends, if I’m the worst friend ever, and I make their life as hard as possible, .

David Gwyn: Yeah. I love that. It, it’s funny that you mentioned that, especially that inciting incident, which I think was where it kind of clicked for me because you had both the personal and professional inciting incident happen within like.

I don’t know a couple pages of each other which like you said really forced her out. It was the thing that forced Capri out of her comfort zone And so when you’re thinking about plotting Are you looking at these as two distinct like the the? plot for the murder mystery and the plot along with the tension within the character and and their Relationship with others are these things happening?

Are these things happening overlapping each other or do they kind of happen for you when you’re thinking about this as, as two separate story arcs?

Michelle Chouinard: The answer to that depends on the ultimate resolution. So I have to be careful what I say here because what the reader knows in this book, right?

Is that [00:17:00] somebody is using overkill Bill’s methodology to do these killings and it can’t be overkill Bill because he’s dead. He has died in prison. So why is the person who chose to do this using this methodology? So in the degree to which there is overlap between the personal and the professional have to do with the degree of overlap in the killer’s motive for picking that.

And that hopefully is a question that is, is pushing my reader or pulling my reader through the book, wanting to know what is the connection here. And, I think that’s true in every book that I write, the question of how much overlap or interweaving there is depends on ultimately how close to home this really is at the end.

So, like, in Inheritance, the one I’m writing right now, I mean, in Serial Killer Guide to San Francisco, it matters, right, for sure. But with this family, where everything that’s happening is also dependent on personal stuff, Like it’s almost impossible to pull it [00:18:00] apart, right? So it’s a question I think of degree on a case to case kind of basis if that made sense Yeah,

David Gwyn: it did.

No, it did. I love that. I’m thinking about people who are listening to this right now and Don’t have to feel and I always say that whenever i’m talking to writers I’m like this the writing advice that you’re sharing that i’m sharing that anyone’s sharing Is is just that it’s like a suggestion. It’s there are no hard and fast rules.

And so I think it’s really You useful to point out the gray areas and say like, Hey, like, yeah, I did this in this novel, but it might look different in this one. So it might be right for you and the thing that you heard that you’re writing, but it also might not be. And then that’s okay too. Like having these in our toolkit as writers is really important and knowing, you know, maybe it won’t work for this project, but when I get to the next one or the next one or the next one, like, Oh wait, no, I remember that, you know, Michelle talked about this on a podcast where, I can take these things and weave them or I can pull them apart.

And I think that’s really useful for people to hear. So no, I think that’s great.

Michelle Chouinard: Can I throw something in there? So I was recently listening to an interview that Stevie Nicks did. And so she was [00:19:00] talking about Lindsey Buckingham, right? And they had this difficult. relationship. And at some point, you know, he, she says he would criticize my songwriting and he would push me, but sometimes he would say, well, no, you can’t do this.

You can’t do that. And she goes, would you say that to Bob Dylan? And he would back off. So it’s like, you can’t do it until you can write the right thing in the right person’s hand is going to work. So try it, see if it works and go from there.

David Gwyn: Yeah, I love that. And so Michelle, I could talk to you for hours.

This, this has been like amazingly fun. But I do, I do want to ask one more question, which is just, where can people find you? Where can people look you up?

Michelle Chouinard: My website is you can either do michellechenard. com. You can do mmchenard. com cause my other series is written under mmchenard. I think, I think you can do like my full name, michellemariechenard.

com. I think I have all the domains. I’m also on social media. I’m on Twitter. I’m on I’m not on Twitter as much these days. Mostly Instagram. I have a Tik Tok where I talk about words and phrases and things that drive me crazy and stuff that my editor teaches me where [00:20:00] I’m just like, well, I, It’s been 53 years and I didn’t know that.

So, oops, I just gave away my age. You can edit that out, right? I’m just kidding. So yeah, you can find me all of those places and I actually just started a sub stack. So if you’re a sub stack person, come subscribe to that or to my newsletter and I will send you all kinds of fun things about true crime and my books and.

Puppy pictures and kitty pictures and stuff like that.

David Gwyn: So yeah, if you’re listening and you want quick access to Michelle, I’ll link to that stuff in the description. You can, you can find it all there. Michelle, this was so much fun. I, I really, really appreciate you taking the time to chat. And, and like I mentioned this book or a real masterclass and kind of doing a couple of different areas of tension at the same time.

So if you’re listening, pick up the serial killer guide to San Francisco, it’s out now. Michelle, like I mentioned just an absolute blast to talk to you.

Michelle Chouinard: Thank you so much. This has been a joy. I would love to do it again sometime. Please keep me in mind and thank you for all the compliments. I’m going to go feel, go away feeling great about myself now.

David Gwyn: All right, and that’s it. So I hope you enjoyed that interview with Michelle. She was so [00:21:00] insightful and shared so many useful tactics for us as writers to use. And if you want to read a book that does all the things that we just talked about, definitely pick up her novel, The serial killer guide to San Francisco because it really does do these things so well the book is out now

And be sure to sign up to learn more about the Thriller 101 community in the description if you’re a serious writer who wants to level up Your writing and make this the year that you write your best book.

Alright, I’ll see you next week