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🗓 Last Time

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🎙 Interview

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📇 Biography

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📜 Transcript

[00:00:00]

Lisa Kusel: it’s just writing. It’s just a forward momentum.

It’s a shark light behavior for me when I’m writing.

David Gwyn: Have you ever wondered how authors create those unforgettable characters that seem to linger in your mind long after the last page? You know, those characters that feel like they’re living and breathing. Well, today we’re going to talk to a master at character voice.

Lisa Kusel is going to help us develop a process for character voice that can make your characters come alive for readers. I’m David Gwyn, an agented writer navigating the world of traditional publishing. During this first season of the Thriller 1 0 1 Podcast, we’re gonna focus on building the skills necessary to write the kinds of thrillers that land you and agent and readers.

I’m talking to authors, agents, and other publishing professionals about the best way to write a novel. If you want the Expert secrets, this is where you’re going to find them. Last week on the podcast, I talked to Jessica Payne.

Jessica Payne: I mean, goals are great, right? But I think a lot of us as writers have very lofty goals, but they’re goals that we have no control over. But. [00:01:00] I really love the process of writing. So for me, it’s kind of just always having something to work on that I enjoy and to be able to continue putting it out there in the world and reaching readers and hopefully opportunities come my way.

David Gwyn: We talked about how she edits her novels, and she shares some really valuable insights into her writing process.

That episode is linked in the description if you want to check that out.

Lisa was born in New Jersey and raised in California. She lived in various exotic locales around the globe before she made a home in Vermont with her family. She’s the author of a memoir, a short story collection, and the novel, the Widow on Dwyer Court, which is out now, and you should definitely go check it out. You can learn more about her at www. lisakusel. com. Let’s get into the interview.

Lisa, thanks so much for being here and being part of the Thriller 101 podcast. I’m really excited to chat with you.

Lisa Kusel: Thank you so much for having me, Mr. David.

David Gwyn: The Widow on Dwyer Court, which will be out by the time people hear this, so how does it feel?

Lisa Kusel: Talk about opening the first question.

[00:02:00] Wow. How does it feel? Well it feels good to finally get it out into the world. It was a long time coming. I wrote it many years ago and then rewrote it and rewrote it and revised it. And three agents later. Found a home at Blackstone and they have been nothing but terrific, really, really great publisher.

David Gwyn: Yeah, that’s awesome. I, it’s funny. I, I obviously talked to a lot of writers on the podcast and it’s so interesting to me how different everyone’s journey is. And I think a lot of people go into this industry thinking there’s like a straight line to publication and there’s really not. And so I, I think, you know, hearing a story like that and, and hearing how long sometimes it takes.

From idea to, to kind of now you’re sitting here like three weeks from publication, whatever it is.

Lisa Kusel: 16th.

David Gwyn: Yeah. So it’s kind of crazy. I imagine. And you’ve, when you think about how far you’ve come

Lisa Kusel: so, I just want to say that the word circuitous in getting this book is [00:03:00] exactly spot on, but I would like to mention that my first book, which was 2003, went as straight a line as could possibly be. I wrote a book. I reached out to a friend to read it. He sent it to his agent. The agent signed me and it got sold like a week later.

For a two book deal. So this is a very new process for me, and I think it is it probably speaks to the state of the publishing industry because 2003 is a lot different than 2024. Things have changed quite a bit.

David Gwyn: can you tell us what the widow on Dwyer court is about?

Lisa Kusel: So, Widow and Dwyer Court the main character is Kate Burke, and she’s 36 years old, lives in Rayburn, Vermont.

And she does not Like having sex with her husband, Matt she doesn’t know if it’s because of her libido or she could be sex averse or what, but they have made an arrangement, [00:04:00] because Matt is a very sexually oriented human being who travels for business quite a bit, and she said as long as you have one night stands, don’t get involved that’s fine.

And things are going great, especially because Kate has always wanted to be a writer. And it, it occurs to her, well Matt suggested actually, that the kind of books that readers really love are romance books, erotica books, or romance with erotica. And so she has an epiphany one night and says, why don’t you tell me about your affairs?

Because I can use that as material. You shall be my muse. And of course he fought it and then he agreed. And Kate is a best selling erotica writer. And then everything is hunky dory until the widow Dwyer Court, Annie Myers, moves into the neighborhood. And Kate wants nothing more than to be her best friend because she is so cool and so different [00:05:00] Any of the other soccer moms that Kate hangs with.

And she wants to also share the secret side of her with someone who might really think it’s cool. And that’s all I’ll say.

David Gwyn: And so this is such a unique premise and I know it’s something obviously that’s been ruminating on this idea of ruminating for a while. But can you talk a little bit about where this story all came together when you think that the big epiphany for you was around?

The premise for this story.

Lisa Kusel: So my family and I lived in Northern California for many years in a tiny little town in the Sierras. And wow, I probably I don’t know if I could share. And we were friends with people and other couples with tiny little kids that the same age as our tiny little child.

And it turned out that one of them was one of the wives was having an affair with one of the husbands. And it tore apart the small little community. People took sides, uh, who blamed whom. And then when [00:06:00] I asked the woman who was having the affair with the husband of the other couple, I said, Why would you do that?

And, I mean, he’s hot. Yeah, but, and she said that he had a I have to be gentle about this. He had a very unfulfilled sexual part of his marriage, and that just stuck with me. And that was it. That was my inspiration, however many years ago, and the idea of a woman in it. Staying in a marriage with someone who she doesn’t want to make love to, but yet their marriage was very strong.

They stayed married. Quite they were a really tight couple. So, I, and Matt and Kate are a really tight couple. So, what would that look like if you had an open marriage. And then all sorts of books started coming out like Kirsten Moglin’s, I don’t know if I’m saying her name right, The Arrangement, where [00:07:00] they, the, The husband and wife were able to go out on dates with other people, and now polyamory is, of course, a hip thing.

Not so much for my generation, but maybe for your generation, David?

David Gwyn: I still think, probably younger than my generation, even.

Lisa Kusel: And so it, it seemed de rigueur to to write a story that has not really been written before. With a murder.

David Gwyn: And so I think it’s so interesting because I feel like a lot of people are writing domestic suspense and it’s like the kind of like every day, Family dynamic, and this is like a very different family dynamic, which I think is a really cool twist on on what’s happening now, and I’m always kind of on the lookout for what’s happening.

It’s different, and it feels like this is one of those things that is becoming different. You’re taking a family dynamic, like a Traditional like domestic suspense type story, but you’re giving it like a very different twist and giving it kind of a psychological twist too, which I think is really, really cool.

I am curious though. So, so this is, this book comes out [00:08:00] in 2024. Your, your publishing experience before this was in the early two thousands. Right. And so like, what do you think it was in this, this period, this almost 20 year period where you weren’t publishing, like what, what was happening? Were you just not feeling like writing?

Were you writing stuff and just couldn’t get it out there? Like what was going on?

Lisa Kusel: Oh, I have been publishing, but just not in this genre. So my first book was with Hyperion and it was a collection of linked short stories, other fish in the sea. And that was back when the genre was known as chicklet, you know, women’s fiction chicklet.

I still, that gets caught in my throat when I say chicklet. And so that was a two book deal. And then the second book came out two or three years later, and that was Hat Trick. And that was takes place in Zanzibar, and it’s I traveled through Zanzibar and thought, I need to set a book here one day.

And it’s a a drama. And so then that came out in [00:09:00] 2005. I wrote a World War Two so it’s a dual timeline called Mary’s Crossing. And it took me three years to write and research, and I went and wrote it. In fact, I traveled across the English Channel on D Day and I interviewed so many World War II veterans and I went to the British Museum and the library and read through all first hand accounts and I did an amazing amount of research Even though Stephen King always said, you know, do the research, but don’t include it.

But I did. And I wrote this beautiful long book with 16 main characters, gave it to my agent at the time. And he said, what is this? This is too big, too many main characters. So if you want me to go out and sell it, I will. So he tried to sell it for a year and it did not sell. And because that just destroyed me, I made my husband take a job in [00:10:00] Bali in a In a school, he’s a middle was a middle school teacher and a new school was opening called green school and I saw a job opening and I said, let’s move to Bali and you teach and I’ll write a new book that didn’t turn out very well.

So we ran away from Bali met my agent for lunch. And I said, Brian, you need to sell Mary’s Crossing. I’ll rewrite it. And he leaned over and he said, you need to write the Bali book. And I said, what the heck is the Bali book? And he said, I read all your emails that you wrote while you were in Bali, my butt off, right?

A memoir. And I’m like, who wants to read a great fiction? No, no, no. And I fought it for a year. We moved to Vermont. We left our house in California. We moved to Vermont and I finally sat down. I locked myself away in a a bed and breakfast that it was very much like The Shining because it was in the middle of winter and no one [00:11:00] else was staying there.

There were 16 rooms and they just let me have it. And I wrote this memoir, which my. agent at the time called, are you ready? Bitch mom in Bali, confessions of a desperate woman in paradise. You

And he said, it’s very funny. I can call it that. Well, it turned into rash, which is that title didn’t fly. So then, in the meantime, I’m writing the widow on Dwyer court in bits and pieces, also writing a young adult book

Looked great came back and decided this story is too good. I’m going to write it again because Brian couldn’t sell it. I got a new agent. She read it. She loved it. She said, I’m going to sell this in 3 days. She couldn’t sell it. I rewrote it. I went from 1st person to 3rd person [00:12:00] from present to past.

Back to present, from first to third, back to first, changed the ending left that agent, queried brand new agents changed the title. I won’t tell you what the original title was. A few titles were, but they’re really good.

So I never stopped publishing and writing, but this book just kept like crashing to shore and I’d work on it. And then I’d work on something else and then crashing to shore. And then there was COVID. And that just sort of,

David Gwyn: yeah, for sure. Wow. That’s so interesting.

And I think it really highlights, like you mentioned, the kind of craziness of the publishing world, as it’s kind of always been and continues to be.

Okay, let’s pause there for a second. Listening to Lisa’s story is a good example of the ups and downs of publishing. I mean, from a two book deal within weeks or months of finishing a book, to waiting years for this particular story to get finished and [00:13:00] published, publishing is always a wild ride, and Lisa’s story illustrates that.

Before we go on, I have one quick message. If you’re a querying author and you want me to look at your query, then you can enter to win a free review by yours truly. It’s really simple to enter. You just rate and review the podcast and then make sure you’re signed up for the Thriller 101 newsletter so you get notified if you win.

So if you want me to give you feedback on your query letter, be sure to leave a rating and review on this podcast and then look out for my weekly email that highlights new reviews. If you see your review, congratulations, you won for that week. There’ll be more information in the email for you to check out.

if You want to win, I would do this as soon as possible. I started this giveaway last week. And so there’s already a few entrants. The earlier you get it done, the higher the chance you get chosen. So go do that right away. In the next part of the interview, I’m going to ask Lisa about how she develops her character’s voice.

Lisa is a master at this. And when you read The Widow on Dwyer Court, you’ll see what I mean. She’s created really distinct, but [00:14:00] equally real voices that jump off the page and her method, or maybe I should say process is really interesting.

You’ll see what I mean. Oh, and we also compare plotting and panting. So make sure you hang around for that. Let’s get back into the interview.

I do want to ask you a few questions about your characterization, because I think you Great character voice, and it really starts, of course, with Kate as a main character, but I’m curious how that process was of, like, finding her voice.

Is that something that came to you right away? Or is that something you had to, like, dig into the manuscript to really find?

Lisa Kusel: I had to sit with Kate for For quite a while before I found her voice. Annie’s voice came very quickly to me. I could relate to Annie a little bit more. People ask me, are you Kate?

Are you Annie? Because, you know, we always write a little bit of our own personalities into our characters. You can’t not do that. Kate less so. Kate is very she’s a peacemaker. She’s cautious. She [00:15:00] is reflective as opposed to Annie, who’s very impulsive and spontaneous self absorbed. I I I am more like Annie, so Kate just trying to keep her on an even keel because she is the through line of the story.

It is Kate. Story, ultimately even when The day new mom, when things change so drastically, she, she can’t lose herself. I couldn’t allow her to suddenly change her language, her body language, her dialogue. And aside here, the, my editor on this I don’t know if you are aware, but when Kate speaks, she never uses.

Curse words. She says fudge. She says shoot. And my editor was really pushing me to have her say fuck and these words. [00:16:00] And I’m like, no, that’s not who Kate is in the real world. She writes the word fuck. She writes, I’m sorry, you’re going to have to edit all that out.

Let’s go. Herself when she’s, and there is a book within a book, as you know, and she can write her butt off, but she won’t speak like that. So that was another voice that I had to work very hard on is the voice of Kate, who is, you know, who blushes. She’s a blusher, constantly, who’s writing these graphic sex scenes through her voice.

So I appreciate you asking that question. That was a process.

David Gwyn: Yeah, I imagine, and it is funny now that I’m thinking about it as we’re talking about it. You, you have Kate’s voice, and then you have Kate’s real voice. Writing voice, which is its own voice within the book, obviously. And so, as you’re, as you’re writing, I mean, writing a novel is a long [00:17:00] process as, as you know, how are you ensuring consistency with these characters voice throughout the novel with Annie’s and Kate’s and Kate’s writing voice?

Like, is that something that you had to edit through? Or is that something that you felt like once you had, you really could just fly through and write these voices?

Lisa Kusel: They move in. They move into the house. Any novel I’m writing, I mean, my husband and daughter have always said, When are they leaving already?

I’m like, so tired of these people! Because I’ll sit at dinner and I’ll go, Well, what would Kate think about that? And what would Annie? Oh, did I tell you what Annie said to Kate today? Like, I literally, they just, it’s like, I have to exercise them after I am finished to just get them out of my life. That’s it.

But Kate was as real to me as you are there across the ether. So when I’m writing, I’m fully in her body, in her head when she’s picking up the slippers, you know, she wears those [00:18:00] fuzzy slippers and when she puts her toe in and she’s flinging it up and down in a fit of nervousness, I am doing that.

physically, almost, almost literally, not literally, but no, it’s, it once, once the characters exist, their backstories, their histories, their loves, their wants established, it is incredibly easy to stay consistent with a voice for me.

David Gwyn: Yeah. That’s so interesting. So I’m curious about the kind of like inception of the voices happening, because it sounds like, you know, it takes a little while for you to get into the voice of these characters.

And then once they’re there, don’t leave. And so is, is there something that you find, like, are you doing backstory work on these characters or are you just writing them, writing them, writing them over and over in scenes until you find it?

Lisa Kusel: Well, I know who they are before I sit down to write, so the backstory has already been established.

I knew where Kate [00:19:00] grew up, I knew what her parents looked like, I knew what kind of suits, what Matt looked like, where Annie went to college what she did for work, and then it becomes little quibbles, little nibbles of like, Annie, Annie, Is always quoting, you know, she has aphorisms and sayings and she’s always quoting books and movies and the Bible quite often and which is so irreverent to who she is it’s such a juxtaposition.

And so when I am writing an Annie, was writing an Annie chapter, like, what’s funny? What is going to be really funny? It’s so funny about this moment sitting on the soccer field when these two women are sitting side by side watching their kids play soccer together. No, it’s just writing. It’s just a forward momentum.

It’s a shark light behavior for me when I’m writing.

David Gwyn: Wow. That’s really cool.

Lisa Kusel: Other people say that I just listened to so many of your podcasts and I’m like, Oh my [00:20:00] God, Heather Levy. She says that she, like, she doesn’t know how things are going to turn out, and I’m the same way, and I, and in fact, I wrote her after I listened to it, I wrote her on Instagram, and I said, I just listened to your podcast with David, and you were brilliant, and I could relate to so much of what you said.

David Gwyn: It’s funny because I talked to, obviously I talked to a lot of writers and everyone’s got their own kind of different process, but I think the ones that the writers that I’m so intrigued by are the ones who have a different process than me because like the ones who have a very similar, I’m a plotter, I’m like somebody who has to know the end before I get there, otherwise I’ll quit.

I’ll end up in left field and I’ll just keep walking. And so I’m, I’m definitely one of those people. And so when I talk to plotters, I’m like, yeah, your brain makes sense to me. But when I talk to someone like you and someone like Heather and, and, and even like Jessica Payne, like the writers who are just writing to the end, I’m like, how do you end up at the end?

Like, I can’t figure out how you end up there.

Lisa Kusel: I want, I, David, I desperately want to be a plotter. [00:21:00] It is my goal in life and if someday I can do it, I’ll, I’ll bring you back and you can give me a trophy, a little plotter trophy. Finished and handed off to my agent. I was having a lot of trouble because there were so many intricacies and time changes.

And my friend Margo Harrison, she is a thriller writer she is a plotter in the worst way. most obsessive way. And she said, I literally outline pages and pages and pages. And I’m like, what does that look like? And she said, I take index cards and I write scenes and I can move them around on the floor.

And I tried it. I tried it. I didn’t know what to do with it. I didn’t,

but it, but I then get crazy because I don’t know where it’s going. So I flail, and then I focus, and then I flail, and I focus, and I listen, I wait, and the next scene [00:22:00] comes. As opposed to you, you’re like, I am ready for the next scene, I already know what’s there, and you pat yourself on the back as you’re all ready to go.

David Gwyn: Yeah, for me, I think that’s the writing the I don’t wanna say the fun, but like the creative part for me is the stuff that happens in the outline. The work then happens in the writing. Like, that’s when I like sit down and I have to be disciplined because like. In a certain way, I understand this. Like a lot of people who I talk to who aren’t plotters are like, yeah, but then you know what the ending is going to be.

And I’m like, yeah, I, but I still have to find it the same way you did. I still had the same excitement that you had. I just had it three weeks ago when I was doing my outline.

And that’s why I love doing these. It was, it’s so much fun to talk to writers.

Lisa Kusel: I wanted to also say that I listened to what Lisa Unger said and I wrote it down because it was so perfect, her quote. There is no right or wrong way to write a novel. And I’m just like asterisking that. Like, that is [00:23:00] exactly true. It’s the reason that there’s more than vanilla ice cream at the, at the ice cream store.

We all are different. And I applaud you. And

David Gwyn: I applaud you. I applaud you.

Lisa Kusel: Nothing is better than the next.

David Gwyn: No, for sure. Yeah, as long as the book gets done, right?

Lisa Kusel: No, as long as the book gets sold.

Get put on a bookshelf. In the airport. Preferably in Chicago airport.

David Gwyn: There you go.

Lisa, I just have one more question for you, which is where can people find you? Where can people look you up?

Lisa Kusel: LisaKusel.Com. It has my blog link, it has the book link, it has all of that.

David Gwyn: Great. So if you’re, if you’re listening to this and you want quick access to Lisa, I will link to her website and, and definitely a hundred percent go pick up the widow on Dwyer court. It’s out now. Pick it up immediately.

Lisa has so much fun chatting with you. Thanks so much.

Lisa Kusel: So nice meeting you.

David Gwyn: Okay, so that’s it. If you want to check out any of those episodes Lisa mentioned during our interview, I’ve linked those in the description so you can check them out.

As a reminder, if you want a chance [00:24:00] to win a free query review, rate and review the podcast and sign up for the Thriller 101 newsletter to see if you won.

That’s it for this week and I’ll see you soon.