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🗓 Last Time

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🎙 Interview

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📇 Biography

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📜 Transcript

Jessica Payne: ​[00:00:00] my best advice now, looking back, having some experience, which I can’t believe I feel like I now have some experience is to

David Gwyn: So I’ve had the opportunity to talk to Jessica Payne before and I’ll link to those episodes in the description because they are great. But today’s episode is a special one because you’re going to get insights into exactly how Jessica writes her books . that she’s a seasoned author. And then you’ll hear why she says you should under no circumstances, copy her process. We’re going to talk about all that and more in today’s episode. And you’ll walk away with a plan for how to better edit your novels because we all need that. I’m David Gwyn, an agented writer navigating the world of traditional publishing during this first season of the Thriller 101 podcast.

We’re going to focus on building the skills necessary to write the kinds of thrillers that land you an agent and readers.

During this season, I’m talking to agents, authors, and other industry professionals about the best way to write a novel. If you want the expert secrets, this is where you’re going to find them. Last time on the [00:01:00] podcast, I talked to literary agent Jennifer Chevais.

Jennifer Chevais: a lot of what I see is things that are close, but not close enough.

And what I think needs to happen is that, you know, feel free, get that group, do the writers group, like give each other feedback get, get it as close as you can get it

David Gwyn: She talked about what she’s looking for in a submission and how to script the kind of pitch and opening pages to attract an agent’s attention. If you wanna listen to that episode, I’ve linked it in the description. Today’s guest is Jessica Payne. She’s a thriller author living in the Pacific Northwest, where the mountains and Puget Sound are home beyond writing, she loves to run, rock climb, and explore the great outdoors with her daughter and husband.

She’s also an RN and host of Mom’s Writer’s Club on YouTube,

Jessica is the author of Make Me Disappear, The Lucky One, The Good Doctor, and Never Trust the Husband, which is the book we’re going to talk about today, so let’s get into it.

Jessica, thanks so much for coming back to the Thriller [00:02:00] 101 podcast. So excited to chat with you again.

Jessica Payne: Thank you. I’m really excited to be back. It’s been a little bit.

David Gwyn: I know it has been. And your newest release, Never Trust the Husband, which I’m going to hold up my, my actually like my signed copy here.

People can’t see that, but you can.

Jessica Payne: You’re wonderful.

David Gwyn: Can you tell us a little bit about this, this book?

Jessica Payne: Yeah, I’d love to. So Never Trust a Husband is my latest psychological thriller. And it was a lot of fun to write. It is about a travel nurse named Rebecca and she is back in Seattle after a long time away.

And you immediately learn, and this is one of my favorite parts about the book she likes to go on long runs in the dark of night. So she goes out running under the cover of of night and she’s a bit of a voyeur. She has found that people like to leave their blinds open and their curtains open and they always leave their lights on and you can like see right into their house.

So. She has as a bit of a loner, she’s kind of [00:03:00] created stories in her head about who these people might be. And there are two people in particular who she most likes to watch, which I will get back to in a second. So the reason she returned to Seattle is because she has learned that someone who used to be very important to her, named Madeline, has died.

And the official report says that Madeline died in a tragic accident out hiking, but Rebecca is sure that it was actually a murder. And the two people she likes to watch are, in fact, the people she thinks are the murderers. She thinks one of them, if not both of them, are responsible for her murder. And those two people are Gwen, Madeline’s best friend, and Benjamin, Madeline’s husband.

And to make matters even worse, Gwen and Benjamin are now actually engaged to get married. So she’s like, kind of thinking maybe they’re even in on it together. So she decides that the best way that she can kind of figure out what happened is [00:04:00] to worm her way into their lives. So she has a quote unquote, like happenstance meeting with Gwyn and soon becomes like a trusted confidant and she, you know, You know, finds her way into their home, and has many excuses to hang out with them, and basically the deeper she digs, the more she realizes that they have secrets and motives for having wanted Madeline dead, and in the midst of all of this, she realizes that someone has actually been following her when she runs at night, and that this person may be is trying to stop her, or kill her, before she figures out what really happened to Madeline.

So oh, and then one of my other favorite parts is it’s actually told in dual point of view. So you get Madeline’s point of view leading up to her murder and like what’s going on with Gwen and Benjamin, and then you also get Rebecca’s point of view as she tries to figure out the mystery. So yeah, it was just really fun to write and it’s been pretty well received, which has felt really good.

David Gwyn: Yeah, it’s such an [00:05:00] interesting premise. Where did this idea come from?

Jessica Payne: Well, when I was living in Texas I’m in the Pacific Northwest now, and that’s kind of where I can set her home. But we were in Texas for a year and a half while my husband was doing a school there. And. I had a very young baby so the only time I could go running by myself was early in the mornings under the cover of dark and I would run through this like really nice neighborhood and these people would just leave their windows wide open I and I wouldn’t want to like be staring into their house but you know your your eyes kind of attracted to light and I’d be like oh my gosh I can just see into their house and then I started wondering like What kind of person would do this on purpose?

And why would she be doing this on purpose? And so it led to this storyline and yeah, it’s, it’s. It was like such a fun, creepy experience in Texas. It was fun to put it in a book.

David Gwyn: So how long ago was that? I mean, how long has this story been kind of ruminating?

Jessica Payne: Yeah. So we were [00:06:00] in Texas. We got there like literally days before the city shut down for COVID.

So we got there in March of 2020. So I would say this book has been in my head for two or three years. And then I finally got it down and sent it to my publisher.

David Gwyn: What do you think it was that, that led you, like, that felt like the time was now to write it? Did something click at some point for you?

Jessica Payne: Well, I had started writing it before, like I knew I wanted to do something with it, and I just hadn’t fully figured out what, so I had like bits and pieces, and then I had like a great conversation with my agent, and she had some really good ideas, and it just started coming together, as books sometimes do, or you hope and pray that they do.

David Gwyn: Pieces start falling into place, right?

Jessica Payne: Yeah, exactly.

David Gwyn: So how much can you tell us about what you’re working on now?

Jessica Payne: I can tell you just a little bit.

David Gwyn: Take whatever we can get.

Jessica Payne: Okay. Well, I have another psychological thriller that I’ve been [00:07:00] working on and I’m working on revising that right now. It’s in the same vein, but very different.

So that was really fun to work on. And then I’m working on something. That is still kind of in the crime writing area, but it’s very different. And I can’t really talk about it much, but I’m having a great time with it. And it’s been really fun to do something that’s similar, but different. And let my brain work a little differently.

David Gwyn: And so are you, do you have any goals when it comes to publishing, like, do you even think about that? Or do you just kind of write as they come?

Jessica Payne: Okay, so as far as goals, I just think goals and publishing are such a hard thing to, I mean, goals are great, right? But I think a lot of us as writers have very lofty goals, but they’re goals that we have no control over.

And I know many people have talked about this on podcasts, but I try to really focus on kind of the next thing. I mean, would I love to have like a bestselling book and like, you know, get a movie deal? Absolutely. Who [00:08:00] wouldn’t? But. I really love the process of writing. So for me, it’s kind of just always having something to work on that I enjoy and to be able to continue putting it out there in the world and reaching readers and hopefully opportunities come my way.

And but yeah, just to keep writing is my thing. I don’t have any one specific goal.

David Gwyn: I have such a good point to really focus on the things that you control when publishing. There’s, there’s so much out of your control when it comes to publishing. If you’re a, traditionally published author that Really, I think you could drive yourself crazy by thinking about all the things you don’t have control over.

Jessica Payne: Right? Yeah. It’s not a good thing. It doesn’t help.

David Gwyn: Okay, let’s pause there for a second because I love this message from Jessica.

It’s important that we all focus on what we can control in publishing, and that means writing and getting better at writing, and that’s pretty much it. That’s really all you can do so those are the things that we as writers need to focus on

before we go on, I have an important message. If you’re a querying author and want me to look at your query, then you can enter to win a [00:09:00] free query review by yours truly. It’s really simple. Step one, rate and review the podcast. Step two, sign up to the Thriller 101 newsletter so you get notified if you win.

So if you want me to give feedback on your query letter, be sure to leave a rating and review and be on the lookout for my weekly email that highlights new reviews. If you see your review, congratulations, you won. And if you want to win, I do this as soon as possible.

The earlier you get it done, the higher the chance you get chosen. Okay, so in the next part of the interview, we’re going to dig into Jessica’s writing process. This is the moment you’ve all been waiting for.

It’s interesting to hear this process now that she has a few books out in the world. I’d love to hear how she’s changed her process when it comes to planning and writing her books. You’ll see what I mean. Let’s get back into the interview

So the, the thing I really am so excited to talk to you about because now you’re a couple of books in and we’ve talked about your writing process before. And I’m really curious how it’s evolved now with more books under your belt

and so, can you talk a little bit about, like, your drafting process? [00:10:00] You sit down to, like, really, you, like, have this idea, you know what you’re going with, or at least you think you do, and you’re like, okay. Now I’m going to actually start getting it on paper. What does that actually look like ?

Jessica Payne: So this has changed a lot for me.

When I wrote my first book, make me disappear. I had kind of a vague idea of what the book was going to be about and what the midpoint might look like. And I maybe knew what the ending was. It’s going to be, although I didn’t know like who the bad guy was or anything. And I just started writing and I just wrote every chapter and then I did a bunch of revising because when you completely pants a whole book it often leads to a fair amount of revising.

And I do need an element of that. I don’t like to have a whole book, like really, like, Outlined out to a T. Like, I have a friend who will do 40 page outlines, and to me that sounds like the worst thing in the world. But it works great for her, so I’m all about doing what works for you. My process has changed a lot, especially over these last few books.

I try to have like a, a high concept [00:11:00] line or two that describes the book and helps it be like very gettable. And then from there, I love the practice. I know a lot of agents recommend it of like writing your query letter. Now for me, like this isn’t a query letter anybody else ever sees, but it’s just showing me that I have an idea of who the character is, what the main story looks like and what where the stakes are at.

And then the last couple of books I have written a synopsis out and. None of it, I mean, it’s no more than about three pages, single spaced, and a lot of it does end up changing. None of it is ever set in stone, but just having a vague idea of what the main plot points will be has been really helpful. The book I’m working on right now, I knew what the beginning looked like, I knew what my midpoint twist was, and I knew what the ending looked like, and that has been enough to pants the stuff in the middle.

And I, you know, had a synopsis, which completely changed as I went [00:12:00] along and, and I like turn track changes on and I like you know, strike through stuff and add new stuff, add new details. Sometimes it will help me come up with a new idea for a cool twist or a new character or I’ll be surprised by which character really shines and ends up being, you know, a great secondary character.

But. Doing that much, I think, allows me to write a better book.

David Gwyn: It makes a lot of sense. It’s funny, I remember when we talked after your first book, or when your first book was coming out, and you talked about your writing process, you kind of like panced your way through it. And then I remember, I think you wrote it in like three months or something crazy.

And I remember saying like, Whoa, you wrote, you write so fast. And you wrote it very quick to be like, Hang on though, because the editing process was like, tough, so do you find this new process of having an idea, going through the synopsis, going through the query letter, even though a lot of those things might change, do you find that the editing process is just as lengthy or do you find that it’s shortened because you’ve gone through this?

Jessica Payne: Yeah, I think it’s a lot shorter, typically. But I [00:13:00] don’t think that is solely because of that. I think that the editing process is shorter because the plot as a whole typically makes sense. I also get my critique partners to look at that, at that synopsis and help me make sure I’m not like missing anything major

but I also think just having written more books and I have worked with, you know, a couple of different editors at this point and they have been helpful for me identifying where my weaknesses are. So, sometimes when I’m not totally sure what the next chapter needs to look like, I find myself, I go to write it and I’m kind of like telling it.

You know, which telling has its place. I’m not saying it’s always bad, but I find that I’m not actually in the moment and now I recognize that so I let myself tell my chapter and then I open a new file next to it and I go in and I like start writing out details which usually makes it a significantly better chapter, which means that in three months when I go to revise it, you know, that’s solid.

And that’s not something where I’m like, Oh [00:14:00] my gosh, this is horrible. You know?

David Gwyn: Yeah, I love that. I think it’s true. I having, having gone through at it with my, my agent on book, I’m on sub with now is like, there’s, there’s, there’s so much that she pointed out that I was like, okay, like the next book, I just like, I’m gonna fix all these things before you, you know, I send it.

And it really does. It points out stuff for you that. That you can’t obviously you can’t always see and even critique partners is as great as they are and I’m a huge proponent of critique partners, but having people in the industry like you, like you’re saying, having multiple editors, having your agent look at it, people who do this for a living there’s just a different level of detail and of attention to some of these things that That is really, really helpful.

And I’ve found really helpful too. So let’s imagine you’ve written this, you got the whole draft out, you’re ready to go, what’s the first thing you do? I mean, do you put it aside at all? Do you dig right in? Like, what are you doing with that draft once it’s done?

Jessica Payne: I do try to take a break, but I’m generally.

[00:15:00] Aiming toward a deadline so I don’t I know some people are like six months a year, and I just can’t imagine Doing that although. I’m sure it’s helpful I usually take one to two weeks off But the other thing is by the time I get to the end of the book It’s probably been a while since I’ve looked at the beginning of the book So I feel like one to two weeks off is enough for me I also keep a running list as I’m writing of stuff that I need to fix So, I mean, sometimes I’ll go back, like if it’s something about, like if a new character needs to be woven in, I’ll go back and just start weaving that in immediately, I’ll like hit pause and go back and do it, because I think that impacts every scene, which impacts how you’re going to write forward.

But if it is something that won’t impact how I write forward, I just have an ongoing list of stuff I need to fix. So I will immediately go fix all of that stuff, and then from there I’ll take a one to two week break. I’ve been really lucky that it’s been Coincided when we have like a family vacation happening.

So it’s like, I’m forced to take a [00:16:00] break. That’s so nice when it works out that way. It doesn’t always, but yeah, I do think that taking a break helps.

David Gwyn: Yeah, I love that idea of basically prioritizing your edits where, you know, you come up with something, an idea, like you said, maybe a character, or maybe it’s like something different.

You’re like, okay, is this going to impact where I’m headed? And if so, then I need to fix it now. And if it’s not, then making a note of it and coming back, I think is really great. I think I’m one of those writers who I’ll, I’ll go back and fix things way too much, and then by the time you, and I’m sure you found this too, by the time you get further along, you’re like, wait, I didn’t actually need that, like, that edit that I thought I needed, I was like, I don’t know, or I’ll do it differently, or you know, some, you, you ruminate on things.

And things show up differently, and so, I really love that idea of just deciding the prioritization, really, of, of those edits on, on, or the impact on how the rest of your story’s gonna go. I think that’s really, really interesting. Is that something that you’ve developed in your process by, by writing multiple books and having, having gone through this process a bunch of times?

Jessica Payne: I think so. And then I was talking to an [00:17:00] editor a while ago about it and this editor was working with me on the book I was writing at the time and it was just an interesting conversation to have because there were a couple of different instances where I was like, I had to make the choice whether to stop writing and go back or whatever.

to write forward. And yeah, I’ve just found that so often it’s better to maintain that momentum if it’s not something that is really going to affect, you know, what you’re doing in that moment. So it’s just a judgment call. And, and you always get better at those with more experience. So

David Gwyn: And so now you’re you’re digging back in for your kind of larger edits, maybe here, do you do multiple rounds of edits?

And how do you think about those? I mean, are you changing every. thing that you come across with each one? Are you doing this in focus stages? Like, what is that the actual editing process once you’ve taken those few weeks off?

Jessica Payne: It really depends on the book. I think every book is different. And you have to think about what each they’re like [00:18:00] children, they all need something different.

So I think that now that I do the synopsis ahead of time, or like a blueprint where I just write down like the basic beats of the plot and what I try to do is while I’m writing, I add to it so I can like look at that at a glance. I feel like a developmental edit is a lot less now. So I usually do A full read through and markup and like look for any details I think I need to change, look for anything that doesn’t feel right, if anything needs to be rewritten or moved around, I will at that point, like one solid go through.

I will send it to a couple of critique partners. And they will also read it and then I’ll make any changes. I usually write pretty clean. So I’m pretty comfortable with like a copy edit like not doing anything that detailed and then I send it to my agent and she will have it just depends on the book, but some level of developmental edit line edit for me.

She usually sends back an edit letter [00:19:00] with a notated manuscript. So I’ll do that. And. Yeah, it just depends on the book. I don’t, I am not someone who has like eight rounds of edits, typically. I know people who do that and I really respect them and that just sounds so awful to me. But yeah, usually a few rounds, critique partners, agent reading, but it really depends on the book.

I have had one book that took a lot more editing, like a partial rewrite. Whereas like my last couple have not needed that, thankfully.

David Gwyn: Yeah, that’s awesome. And I feel like there’s like a lot of people listening right now who want to get there, right? Because they’re probably people who have a couple books, or figuring out the editing process, or like me, spending too much time on things that end up being taken out anyway.

And so if you had advice for someone who’s sitting here listening to you and saying like, okay, You know, I want to get as close to that process of replicating just process as possible. What is maybe like one piece of advice you would give them going into that? You know, obviously they’re thinking like start with a synopsis, right?

You know, edit the way that we [00:20:00] talked about with, you know, only editing backwards if you need to. Taking those one to two break, two week breaks and then and then getting into this kind of really deciding, I guess, what, what needs to be done with an edit. You have someone who’s trying to replicate that process.

What do you think you would tell them to think about or make sure that they’re considering while they take that on?

Jessica Payne: So my first advice would be don’t try to replicate my process because my process might not work for you. My advice is to learn about as many people’s processes, as many writers processes as you can.

Okay. And so I just know that when I first started writing, I would listen to an author on a podcast and be like, I’m going to do what that person did. And yes, by all means, try it out. See what they do that works for you, but, but you are not them. Your writing process and your writing style is different.

And, and again, like I think even my own process changes. So I, you know, my best advice now, looking back, [00:21:00] having some experience, which I can’t believe I feel like I now have some experience is to be aware of how you’re feeling. And I know that is like, So probably not helpful and not exact, but how are you feeling about your book?

How are you feeling about this part and that part? And at first that’s not helpful advice. I know that because you don’t really know how you’re feeling because you’re writing your first book, but you will develop that sense for me at this point. When I feel like something is off about a chapter, it’s because something is off about that chapter, and you will start to develop that, and you need to listen to that.

Okay, if you’re really just trying to replicate what I’m doing, which I don’t know why you would, it feels so chaotic sometimes I am a huge proponent of printing your manuscript and reading through it on paper. And someone out there is telling me about all the trees I’m killing, but you can recycle it.

You can have your child use the backside for coloring and then you can recycle it. So I do think it’s worth [00:22:00] it. I think like actually printing it out and looking at it on paper is one of the best things that I do that helps me the most. It is totally different than looking at it on paper. looking at it on your computer, you will catch different things.

It is better than changing the font or the background color or even putting it on your iPad. I swear printing it. It’s just different. And then you have that like tactile experience of holding it like it’s a real book. So that that would be my advice. I don’t know if that’s exactly answering your question, but

David Gwyn: I love it.

I think it was great. And I do think it’s one of those things in publishing. I tell people all the time I’ve talked to a lot of writers, obviously, I know you, you have to talk to a lot of writers and The one thing I always tell people is like, the only thing that every writer has in common is that they have nothing in common.

Whether it’s the way that they write, their way to get into publishing, like everything is different. And so I do, I do think you’re right. Like, you know, listening to a podcast like this and then trying to replicate exactly is not a good idea. And I think finding your process is, is really important.

Jessica Payne: I have one more piece of advice . I was thinking about what you said. When you [00:23:00] said that, you know, you have your agent now and you’re revising and you’re like, okay, I’m going to remember this for next time.

I was thinking about this literally this morning. And I was like, I’m bringing this up on the podcast. So sometimes it is like one to two or even longer years between books that we write. Right. So like, as I’m writing the current book I’m working on, I’m like reading through save the cat for like the billionth time, which you should read if you haven’t read it yet, save the cat, right?

It’s a novel. And I’m like, Oh, I remember learning this three years ago. Funny how I forgot that detail. So I guess my first piece of advice would be to reread that book about once a year, but also get a notebook. I have a little writing notebook over here and I started doing this last year. And whenever you learn something that you’re like, I’m going to remember this for the next book.

No, you’re not. Write it down in your writing notebook. And then look at that before you write. Your next book. It is just shocking to me that I’ve written like, so I’ve published four books and I’ve written at least eight. Probably more than that because, you know, the books [00:24:00] to get my agent and, and then the ones I’m still working on.

And there are so many things I had to learn multiple times. And I wish that from the beginning I had been writing them down. So that is like my best piece of advice is when you learn those things, write them down.

David Gwyn: have, I feel like I’ve learned a million things this is so much fun. So my last question for you is just, where can people find you? Where can people look you up?

Jessica Payne: Yeah, so you can find me on my website, which is jessicapayne. net. I’m on Instagram at jessicapayne. writer, and those are the best places to find me. I’m on the other social media. I don’t really use it very often.

David Gwyn: Yeah, that’s awesome. That’s so cool. So Jessica, like I said, this is so much fun. I learn a million things every time we talk.

I’m really glad we were able to set this up and get you back on the podcast. So we’ll have to do it again soon.

Jessica Payne: This is great. Thanks so much.

David Gwyn: So that’s it. Hopefully you have a better sense of how you can edit your books based on this process,

but remember, don’t just steal Jessica’s process, make it your own. As a reminder, if you want a chance to win a [00:25:00] free query review, rate and review the podcast and sign up for the Thriller 101 newsletter to see if you won. Next week, I’ll be talking to Lisa Kusel about her novel, The Widow on Dwyer Court.

You’re going to love that episode because Lisa shares how she writes her characters, how her unique voices come to her, and so much more. I’ll see you then.