---

🗓 Last Time

---

🎙 Interview

---

📇 Biography

---

📜 Transcript

Jason Rekulak

Jason Rekulak: [00:00:00] process is, it’s totally unique to you. You won’t know what it is. And a mistake that a lot of writers make is just assume that there’s only one way to do it.

David Gwyn: Welcome back to Thriller 101. Today, my guest and I will be talking about using unique protagonists, why he likes writing thrillers, how to craft page turning stories. Plus, we’ll talk about the art of creating shifting perspectives, and how he plots out those twists and turns that keep readers hooked.

If you’re a thriller, suspense, mystery, or crime writer looking to develop your skills, you won’t want to miss this conversation. I’m David Gwyn, a writer navigating the world of traditional publishing,

during the second season of the Thriller 101 podcast, we’re going to continue our focus on building the skills necessary. to write the kinds of thrillers that land you, an agent, and readers. During this season, I’ll be sharing some of my own insights while also talking to agents, authors, and other publishing professionals about the best way to write a novel.

If you want the expert secrets, Thriller 101 is where you’re going to find them. Last week on the podcast, I talked to Mary [00:01:00] Beth Mayhew Whalen.

Marybeth Mayhew Whalen: I walk around with. A bunch of stories inside of me and a bunch of characters.

David Gwyn: She shared really great information about how she finds her character’s voice and organizes her books. Plus, she has probably the most extensive plotting of any author I’ve talked to.

So you’ll want to check that out. The link is in the description if you want to listen to that episode. Today’s guest is Jason Rekulak.Jasonis the author of Hidden Pictures, a national bestseller and winner of a Goodreads Choice Award, and The Impossible Fortress, a finalist for the Edgar Award. And his new book, The Last One at the Wedding, which is out today, and you definitely, definitely, definitely want to pick up this book.

All right, let’s get to the interview.

Jason, thanks so much for being on the Thriller 101 podcast.

Jason Rekulak: Thanks. It’s great to be here.

David Gwyn: I’m really curious about your, your new novel, the last one at the wedding, which will be out when people are listening to this. So can you tell us a little bit about what it’s about?

Jason Rekulak: Sure. Yeah. I mean It, the book starts with a phone call. There’s this dad, his name is Frank. He’s a driver for UPS. He lives in Stroudsburg, [00:02:00] Pennsylvania, and he gets a phone call from his daughter, Maggie and she’s like 25 years old and we don’t know why at the start of the book, but they haven’t spoken in three years.

They’re estranged, but she calls to say that she’s getting married. She wants her dad to know she wants her dad to be there and she’s, you know, She wants him to be part of her life again, and he’s thrilled. He’s like, this is the best thing, because he just feels horrible about this estrangement. And so she invites him to the wedding.

It’s going to be this three day wedding weekend up in New Hampshire. And it all seems great. But just about maybe three days before the wedding, he learns this little bit of information about the man she’s marrying. And what he learns is that this guy’s previous girlfriend disappeared. She, she, she vanished under mysterious circumstances.

No one really knows what happened to her. And, you know, this is a real big red flag for him, you know? And, and it’s not the first red flag. He’s noticed a couple other strange things. And so he’s in this real bind where he, he wants to have this relationship with his daughter. And he wants to be part of her life [00:03:00] again.

So the last thing he wants to do is second guess. her decision, but at the same time, he has this, just this, this persistent instinct, like a buzzing in his ear that like something here isn’t right. Something’s wrong with these people. And most of the book takes place at the three day wedding weekend, and it just gets stranger and stranger.

The longer he’s there, the stranger everything gets. And and that’s basically the conflict of the book. It’s sort of like, you know he doesn’t want to push her away by second guessing her, but. He has major, major reservations. And so he investigates and what he finds, I think, would surprise people.

David Gwyn: Yeah, that’s awesome. And so I, I’m really curious where, where did the idea for the story come from,

Jason Rekulak: you know, it came from a bunch of different places. I’ll tell you one that’s funny is I, I think a lot of writers do this. I spend a lot of time brainstorming like hypothetical what if situations and if my wife’s around I’ll say, Hey, you know, what would happen if you know, if you found like cocaine in my pocket or something, you know what I mean?

Like I’m always asking like these weird questions and one I asked her was I said, you know, [00:04:00] if our son committed a crime, would you turn him into the police? And she’s like, well, what kind of crime are we talking about? And I was like, you know, something really bad, like say, say it was Say murder, you know, and she looks at me.

She thinks for a minute and she’s like, well, how many murders, right? How many? How many like how about one? But she’s like she’s like I think if it was just one I she’s like, I don’t know I don’t she’s like I just can’t imagine turning him in. I don’t think I would turn him in and so You know, it just got me thinking about parents and children and and, and, and the fiance in this book that Maggie, the daughter is going to marry.

Of course, his parents are like, our son did nothing wrong. He’s totally innocent. You know, he would never hurt anyone. And And, and, and when you look at the news, you, you can find thousands and thousands of like real world case studies where this happens, you know and so that, that was like a big driver for me.

My kids are good. They’re, they’re still like young. They have not gotten into criminal trouble yet, but you know, you just worry.

David Gwyn: Oh, that’s so much fun. I love that. I’m gonna have to start bothering my wife how much can you tell us about what you’re working on now?

Jason Rekulak: Well, I [00:05:00] mean I generally try to have a new book underway before a book comes out because you want to have like a full head of steam in case, you know, the book is met with a resounding silence, you know which, which is most books, you know so I can’t tell you too much cause I haven’t even told my editor yet, but I think You know, I wrote this book called Hidden Pictures, which gets called a horror novel a lot.

I think of it as like a suspense thriller with like light supernatural elements, but and then you know, this most recent book, the one I was just talking about is like straight up suspense. But I think I’m going to go like, you know, I want to dip my toes back into the world of the supernatural for the next one and do something that’s You know, a little more spooky.

And I think it’s a really fun premise. But, but I, I should not talk about it yet.

David Gwyn: I won’t, I won’t push you. I won’t push you. I’m always curious. And, and I, we’ll talk about this in a little bit, which which is really just about like the work that you’re doing now and thriller and thriller adjacent.

I feel like the thrillers, like you kind of mentioned that thriller, horror, suspense, it’s all kind of blends together and have different [00:06:00] elements at different times. And so I’m really curious what made you want to write thrillers? And now that you’re in that like kind of thriller vein, like what, what keeps you here?

Jason Rekulak: Yeah, well, I mean, they are my favorite kinds of. novels, like when they’re really good, like the really good ones, like the, the, the, I don’t, there’s nothing better, I think. So my first book, my very first book, it was marketed as a sort of coming of age novel, but at the core of it, there’s this robbery.

I always thought of it as like a heist novel. These kids are like breaking into the store to steal something. So I was still reading lots of like crime novels while I was writing it. But it got sold as a young adult novel. like coming of age novel. And and you can, you can do that with like your debut.

Cause people know you’re drawing on like autobiographical experiences. But then at that point, you know, publishing sort of demands that you like pick a lane, you know, and you know, so I’ve always read, you know, thrillers, [00:07:00] suspense grew up reading Stephen King. I was a huge Stephen King fan. I was like, you know, I was growing up, I was a kid in the 80s.

So like, That was like Stephen King heyday. And then I had the idea for Hidden Pictures, which was just like, Oh, this is like such a really fun idea. And so, so, you know, I did one. And now I have to, I have to stay here. I mean, you know, if I, if I tried to write a, write a western or something, they would They would flip out.

But I don’t really want to, so it’s okay.

David Gwyn: Yeah, so it seems like it worked out for you. You kind of found yourself in a, in a genre that you, that you enjoy, which is, which is really cool.

Okay, let’s pause there for a second. So far, we’ve heard about why Jason prefers to write thrillers, and he talks about his new book.

Before we get to the next part of the interview, it’s official ish that I’m starting a community for thriller, suspense, mystery, and crime writers.

It’s going to be an absolute master class in writing and is going to have a variety of different guests.

and special insights that you’ll only get if you’re part of the community. beI’m Building this so that it is absolutely invaluable for serious writers trying to write their next book, find an agent, and build connectivity in the industry. [00:08:00] You’re not going to want to miss out on this because I’m only accepting a certain number of writers to act as founding members.

If you want to be considered for one of those spots, then sign up the link in the description to be the first to get notified when the doors open if you’re a serious writer who wants to take the next step in their writing career then you need to sign up right now so you can be on the fast track to writing your best book ever.

In the next part of the interview, we talk about how he develops his characters, why he thinks his new book is unique in the thriller world, and why your writing process should be unique to you.

Oh, even if it is fun to listen to other writers talk about theirs.

Oh, and before we go back to the interview, Jess Munday wrote an article for Thrill Oh, before we go back to the interview, Jess Munday wrote an article for Thriller 101 called Six Critical Elements Every Thriller Needs. Here’s just one piece of advice she shares.

Judith: Thriller authors intentionally keep things from readers. They leave little breadcrumbs for their readers that give them a hint or possible solutions to “the thing to be solved” without revealing everything all at once. [00:09:00] These breadcrumbs come in the form of information gaps where a character may get a little piece of information related to the puzzle to be solved, but not the full thing.

David Gwyn: If you want to read the whole article and see if you have all six of these critical elements, then head down to the description for the link to that.

Okay, let’s head back to the interview.

As we’re talking, I’m kind of even connecting pieces about, about your character and the way you do character work because it feels like you know, you’re the, at least with Hidden Pictures and, and you’re new in the last one at the wedding.

Yeah. You’re, you have this really like character forward thriller in which you’re not just putting characters in a, you know, high tense situation in which they’re having to race against the clock, but also this like complex battle are having with themselves and with, you know, kind of the decisions that they have to make like this, this parent, this father in the last one at the wedding kind of deciding like, I’m just getting back into my daughter’s life.

Do I make waves here or not? Yeah. I’m thinking Hidden [00:10:00] Pictures too kind of has the same like, you know, the, the protagonist is kind of in rehab and so she’s like, you know, or she, you know, she’s out of rehab, she’s like, do I bring this up? Are they gonna think I’m crazy? Am I gonna get fired? Like, there’s a lot of complexity here with your characters and I’m, I’m really curious about how you, you know, think about characters and like how you go into the process of developing characters.

Jason Rekulak: Thank you for saying that. I mean, I do think a lot about who the characters in the story are. And I feel like that is sort of foundational to like any good book, like in any genre, I think, you know, sometimes in genre fiction, particularly when you have authors who are like, putting out the books pretty quickly, you know, You know, like if an author is like on a one year, a book a year schedule, you know, if you’re writing a book a year, you’re really realistically writing that book in like eight months and sometimes character is like the first thing to be sacrificed on that kind of schedule because you really, you know, the plot, like there’s the premise and there’s the plot and there’s the twist and all that stuff and the characters can seem a [00:11:00] little flat, you know, and, and that’s actually You know, I mean, one of the weird things about this wedding book is that it has a really unusual narrator, like you just don’t see too many thrillers narrated by 52 year old UPS drivers from Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania, but that was like a conscious deliberate choice.

Like I was seeing all these thrillers that were always narrated by the same or, you know, a similar sort of 25 year old woman. And I just written a book about a 25 year old woman. So I was like, okay, why? I don’t want to do that again. I was afraid that if I did, it would just sound like the character I just wrote.

You know, I wasn’t sure I could like break that voice and do, you know, a totally different 25 year old woman. So instead I tried to like veer as far from that as I could, which, you know, may prove to be disastrous commercially, right? Like, like this just does not exist. I mean, if you, if you look at psychological thrillers narrated by, dads you know, they’re just, they’re just aren’t it’s not a [00:12:00] very long list.

Or, or, you know, or when they are like the dad, it turns out you know, or, or when they do figure into the story that, you know, they’re, they’re like homicidal sociopaths or something like that. You know what I mean?

David Gwyn: Yeah.

Jason Rekulak: But so for me, like that was the most exciting part of it. Cause I was like, well, all right, so I’m making this decision.

And now that I know that, I can really lean into his voice, and I can see things through his eyes, and And the advantage to that is that you can take a lot of the tropes that might seem familiar from other thrillers, but because you’re seeing them through this person’s perspective, that it sort of like freshens everything up, you know?

And it all seems, it all seems new again, because you’re seeing it through, through a new set of eyes.

David Gwyn: You obviously have completely different Protagonists here, like you mentioned I think you like nailed the voice on both protagonists. And so it’s obvious to me that you either have like a natural ability here with with identifying voice or that you do a ton of work.

Which is it? And how do you think about character and character [00:13:00] voice?

Jason Rekulak: Well, I mean, I do write a lot of things. I try a lot of different things and I throw away a lot of stuff, you know I, I try lots and lots of different things. I spend a lot of time thinking about I knew the premise of this book. I knew the setup. I knew that, you know, this guy was going to go to this wedding and there were going to be people in the car with him, you know, but when I started, I’m like, well, I don’t know who’s in the car with him.

Right. And so. I considered like lots of different characters. I’m like, well, who, who is he taking on this like adventure? In addition to the reader, you know, yeah. And so I, I tried some things that like I later, I, at one point he had a teenage son and that didn’t work out. There’s a 10 year old girl who ends up coming with him, who is his sister’s foster child.

And, at one point she was a 17 year old girl, but you know, she was too old, I decided I wanted her to be younger, so I mean, I don’t know the answer to your question, but I do know that I do a lot of trial and error and the general flavor of like all the characters, that I’ve written so far don’t require [00:14:00] a ton of research because they’re like people I know, you know what I mean?

Like the people I, or like the people I grew up with. So like, I feel like I’m very comfortable writing the voice of these people.

David Gwyn: And so that kind of leads me into my next question here, which, which is a plot question which is like, how, I mean, are, are you doing an outline? Are you kind of writing your way into the story?

What is your process for getting into a, into a new story?

Jason Rekulak: Yeah, it’s sort of half and half. I mean, I like to have a sense of like, what I think. The ending is but sometimes I just have to like start writing it just to discover what the hell it is. So, you know, there’s people, they talk about Are you a plotter?

Are you like a person who’s like a slavishly devoted to your outline? Or are you a pantser where like you’re writing by the seat of your pants? And I kind of do a little of both and My friend Ben is the same way But I guess there are some people who are strictly one or the other. I just don’t get it though you know what?

I would compare it to I would confess funny. I thought of this the other day I’m a terrible chess player My [00:15:00] son he will destroy me at chess and it’s because when I’m playing chess I look at the board and I can think one move ahead And maybe I can think like two moves ahead and then I’m just like, Oh, I have no idea.

I don’t know. Like my brain just like shuts down. I’m like, I just got to move. I just got to move the piece and see what happens. And I feel the same way when I’m writing a story. I’m like, ah, I don’t know. Maybe this happened. Maybe I just got to write this and see what happens. and that’s what it’s like.

David Gwyn: Do you find, do you find that your characters are driving the plot changes as you make them or the plot decisions as you make them? Or is this something that you’re thinking about? Oh, I have a twist idea coming up. I need them to go in a certain direction or maybe a little bit of both. I guess

Jason Rekulak: It’s, it’s a little bit of both, but , I’ve always found that writing the first half of the book is harder than writing the second half of the book because once you get about halfway through, you’ve now defined the characters to such a level and you have like such a good grip on them that at this point, you know what they would do.

And so you can [00:16:00] like consider like scenarios and be like, well, okay, in this situation, he would do this and she would do this. And so that would be great, you know? And, but, but it’s hardest at the beginning when you’re just trying to get to know these people. So. The book’s definitely, I feel like I spend 80 percent of my time writing the first half and 20 percent of my time writing the second half.

David Gwyn: Oh, wow. I feel like a lot of people come out like a shot, like they’re like, you know, they get halfway through and they’re like, Oh, wait, now I gotta figure out on the back end. It’s cool to hear that you’re, and you know what, I’ve talked to a lot of authors for the podcast, and I don’t think there’s been two times when an author has said the exact same process.

I mean, it really, really feels like to me that. You know, people start to refine their own process as they go, but that it’s not like like you mentioned, right? Like there’s, there’s very few, if any people who are just plotters, like full on, like must stick with the plot. And, and there’s, you know, equally on the other side, there’s very few people who are, you know, don’t do any plotting.

It does feel like there’s some like a spectrum and people fall somewhere in there. And so, I [00:17:00] think that’s really cool.

Jason Rekulak: Yeah, no, you’re absolutely right. I mean, process is, it’s totally unique to you. You won’t know what it is. And a mistake that a lot of writers make is just assume that there’s only one way to do it.

And, or you should do what your favorite writer does. Like I knew what Stephen King’s process was. He does not outline. The man just starts. writing and he follows the story wherever it goes. I tried that for years because that’s what he did. So I figured, well, that’s how it works. And well, that’s not how it works for me.

David Gwyn: This is great, Jason. I could pick your brain all day. This is, this was so much fun. My last question for you though, is just where can people find you? Where can people look you up?

Jason Rekulak: Well, I mean, online, I’m on Instagram, and it’s just my name, Jason Rekulak and so that’s probably the best place to find me, and in October I have a host of events so the calendar is on Instagram.

And, and you should come, they’re going to be great events.

David Gwyn: I will link your website as well, because I think you have the coolest writer website I’ve ever seen. I mean, it’s, it’s like, it’s very, very well done and very, very cool.

Jason Rekulak: Oh, thanks. My [00:18:00] friend Dan does all that work. I don’t, I can’t take any credit for it, but he’s, he’s a really good designer.

David Gwyn: Awesome. So if you’re listening to this and you want more with Jason, definitely check out his Instagram and his website. And, and for sure pick up this new book, the last one at the wedding because it is, it is great. So Jason, thanks so much for being here.

Jason Rekulak: It’s a pleasure, David. Thank you.

David Gwyn: Okay, so that’s it. So, Jason was so thoughtful. And he shared so much throughout this episode. It was really great to chat with him, and if you learned nothing else from this episode, hopefully you remember to ask weird and random what if questions, because they could become the plot to your next novel.

Munday’s article, and sign up to be notified to hear more about the Thriller 101 community. especially if you’re a writer who wants to make your next novel your best novel. And that’s it, so I’ll see you next week.