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🗓 Last Time

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🎙 Interview

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📇 Biography

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📜 Transcript

Ellie Monago: [00:00:00] so I like a big playing field for, for everybody. And I’m hoping that’s the way things are going because then that can hopefully get more people reading that can get more writers feeling like they’re not boxed out of things because there is a real fear of like, your sales track record isn’t good.

Right. How do I get my next agent? How do I get a book? How does the agent sell me I feel like maybe you don’t have to worry quite as much about that. You can worry more about the work that you’re actually producing. You get more chances, you know, more, more venues, more chances

David Gwyn: There are more avenues to publication now than there have ever been. Whether it’s publishing by partnering with a literary agent, or small or independent publishers, or even self publishing, there are so many ways to get your book out there. So which is the best? Well, today we’re going to hear from an author with a variety of publishing backgrounds.

That way you can decide what’s right for you. I’m David Gwyn, an agent and writer navigating the world of traditional publishing. During this first season of the Thriller 101 podcast, we’re going to focus on building the skills necessary to write the kinds of [00:01:00] thrillers that land you an agent and readers.

I’m talking to authors, agents, and other industry professionals about the best way to write a novel. If you want the expert secrets, this is where you’re going to find them. Last week on the podcast, I talked to Michelle Glogovac about podcast guesting and interviews and how to develop your own unique story.

It was invaluable for anyone planning to do any kind of publicity at some point.

Michelle Glogovac: all of these ways are going to bring you. visibility, your author brand, it’s going to sell books, it’s going to help you when you’re doing that proposal of where have you been, oh I was featured on all of these podcasts and I can also go back and ask to be on again because now I have a book coming out and it’s part of my marketing plan.

David Gwyn: I linked that episode in the description if you want to check it out. Today’s guest is Ellie Monago. She is a novelist and practicing therapist. She moved from California to Canada three years ago with her family. Her novel, The Custody Battle, was just recently released and a related novel called The [00:02:00] Divorce Lawyer is available for pre order now and comes out in May.

Ellie also writes under the name Holly Brown. Bye

And we’re going to talk all about her publishing experience. So let’s get straight to it.

Thanks so much for being here and being part of the interview series.

Ellie Monago: Thank you for having me.

David Gwyn: I’m really excited to chat with you. Your new novel, The Custody Battle, which is out now. How does that feel?

Ellie Monago: Yes it, it feels really exciting because it’s a new publisher and, you know, and you always kind of want to see how a new publisher works, you know, and, and the the mechanics of the thing and, and and it’s a little bit different than some, some previous releases and so I’ve been really enjoying seeing, you know, how they work.

David Gwyn: Yeah, that’s cool. And I know we’re going to dig in and talk a little bit about your experiences because you’re, you’ve got a ton of them, which I think is so valuable for people to hear. But before we do, can you tell us a little bit about what this, this book is about?

Ellie Monago: Yes. So the, the custody battle is, is a, is a very explicit and self explanatory title for sure.

And so Madeline and Greg, start out with what seemed to be the best of intentions, and then it, it goes awry. And it’s it’s based a lot on a brief stint I did as a [00:03:00] co-parenting therapist, which means that you’re the court mandates people to do therapy when they’re behaving in a way that could be detrimental honestly, to their child.

And so it’s a person who’s supposed to kind of help them see the best in each other and want to do better in the process. And and often you just you just end up seeing some really, really ugly. Behavior where each person has, is like sort of fueled by self righteous anger and like loses all perspective.

And so your job in that situation is to sort of bring that perspective and help them see each other’s perspective. And I have to say it was, it was the worst therapy I’ve ever done. I could not stand the job. I got rid of that niche as soon as possible. I thought,

David Gwyn: I

Ellie Monago: mean, I just really thought it was just watching people be distorted by the process.

Essentially that there’s the sort of adversarial nature of the legal process, I think and the sense that they’re each the ones who are trying to save their child or their dastardly ex, I think is and it’s a real pressure cooker and there’s a lot of money involved and there’s a lot of, you know, and and so it’s just very distorting.

I felt, I felt like to, to people [00:04:00] in a way that was really unpleasant to witness as a therapist, but really interesting to use as a setting for a future book. So that was probably. Six years ago was or maybe even more was the last time I actually did that kind of therapy

David Gwyn: Obviously, it’s something with a ton of tension and a ton of conflict Why do you think it took you so long to turn it into a story?

Ellie Monago: That’s interesting. I think for a certain period of time, I, I, I really found it like sort of stressful and distressing and and wasn’t so much wanting to use it for anything because the people were too fresh in my mind.

And I mean, I will say that none of the people are Madeline or Greg or, but there are composite elements, right? There are certain parts of human nature that, That I, I saw routinely being brought out in honestly kind of the worst way. And so there, there’s that. And I always say as a therapist, like the disclaimer, I don’t say it to my clients.

Cause mostly I hope, I think the vast majority of them do not know that I’ve had a psychological and I would prefer to keep it that way. But I think that I [00:05:00] never directly would use anybody that I’ve ever seen, but, but, but you’re immersed in human nature. Right? In, in doing all the sessions. And so there’s just elements of that that kind of have to color, color what I do in terms of fiction.

David Gwyn: Yeah, that’s cool. It’s almost like you needed some distance to like depersonalize it in a way to like make a character That’s really interesting. And so so tell me a little bit about your background writing. Like let’s go back to the beginning here Did you always know you wanted to be a writer?

Ellie Monago: I always knew that I enjoyed writing I I you know, it takes a while like for you to know it’s a career.

And and then I think I did and then I, and then I, once I knew it was a career, I thought it would be my career. And I ended up starting an MFA program and then I didn’t stick with it because I felt like the amount of sort of tenacity, right? And talent that it, because it takes both, I think.

And I, I wasn’t sure I had enough of either at that point, to be honest. And I ended up dropping out of that program and and becoming a therapist. And it was a kind of a Kind of a funny situation where [00:06:00] I, well, it wasn’t funny for the people involved, which were my friends who happened to all be calling me one weekend.

And and they all had just like horrid things happening that weekend. And I remember at the end, I was sort of talking everyone through things. And at the end, one of them said, you know, you really should be a therapist. And it was literally a career I had never thought of. I had gone about my whole life, never thought of it.

And then it like, was I 25, 26? And then suddenly I was like, I am in the market for a new career. And so then I ended up thinking it was like a way you immerse yourself in different stories, right? It’s like, it’s. It’s still a sort of narrative in nature, but it’s a different way of relating to people and to stories.

And and so then I didn’t write for a long time. I was completely devoted to that. And I love that, that I got to just read books without thinking, well, how are they doing this? Well, do I like this? Do I want to learn from this? Do I want, and I liked just being purely a reader and not a writer who’s reading.

And and so I really did enjoy that. And then I sort of found my way, you know, I kind of ended up, you Like through another sort of circuitous series of [00:07:00] events, I ended up writing again. And then, and then I realized they balanced each other beautifully. I was like, I really actually love, you know, having like part time writing life and part time therapy life where you’re not burned out from either.

You’re just kind of getting to be, you know, it just felt like the introvert and the extrovert sides of me got to really kind of level out.

David Gwyn: Yeah, it’s so interesting hearing you say that. I, I feel like there’s always shades of what a person does for their professional life and what they do as a writer and for you I feel like it’s At least in this book, it’s pretty pronounced, which I think and, and, and in a way I guess, because you don’t really do that work anymore, but I think that’s really interesting.

I imagine you get that time that you were spending away from writing where you were just reading and, and kind of immersed in this new profession. I imagine that did a lot for building up some creative juices. Did you find like when you started writing, did it like really flow out of you or was it a process to get back into it?

Ellie Monago: Yes, I think it really flowed because I remember I had a recent breakup and and I was like, I, I felt like I needed to [00:08:00] mentally occupy myself because I was a mess. I was a total mess and and it was, it was, it was a very immersive experience, you know, and then and then that was a long time ago.

That was back. My, my very first book that I ever published was under Holly Schumas, which was my maiden name. And so that was, and it was chick lit and I was just having fun.

I was just writing about somebody sort of finding love. Cause I was all love Lord myself. But so I got into that and and it all went really quickly. I got an agent for that really fast and it all, and it gave me a completely distorted view of this profession. Because I thought you just sit down and write a book in six weeks and then you go out and you find an agent and they just sell it immediately.

And yeah. And that, that was never my experience again. So it is not most people’s experience.

David Gwyn: No. And so let’s talk a little bit about that because I, I do wanna, I do think you have like a, a amazing perspective on, on this whole writing world. So you, so you started off with, is it, It’s four books with HarperCollins, right?

Ellie Monago: [00:09:00] Well, I had two books initially. My chiclet phase, which is how many years ago now was that? Over 20, over 20 years ago. I don’t, I don’t remember what I should know the years of my own books, but I actually don’t. So, so there were two books at that point that were from, Grand Central Publishing . And so that they put out my first two books. And then after that my agent and I, I started wanting to write something. I don’t know if I’d say heavier or if I’d say deeper, I don’t know what I would say. But I wanted to write something different.

And my agent kept reading draft after draft of, of various books and she was not, Very into them and I started to realize oh, she’s not really very into me anymore But she doesn’t want to break up with me. She wants me to break up with her And she was she was lovely. I’m not gonna say her name, but she was lovely I I ended up once I realized this I said, okay Well, i’ll break up with her because it’s not that hard to get an agent so I broke up with her and And then I and then I proceeded to write the book six novels, I believe, without getting any agent interest really at all.

And so that, that [00:10:00] was a long dark period. And and then I finally found then something that I kind of was excited about writing and then that I felt was a really, like, I felt was like, this is, you know, when you get that feeling, you’re like, this is the idea. Like, this is my sort of high concept idea.

And so then I was writing under Ella Brown cause I’ve gotten married. And so I was writing under that. And then and then I got a really great agent. for that. And and, and so, and then she was with me for the four books with Harper Collins. And and then we broke up and, and I knew it was not the easiest thing to go out and find somebody new at that point, but I felt like we were so divergent.

Sometimes you just get divergent in your taste. And I felt it would not serve me to try to right to what I thought she wanted and it didn’t serve her to try to sell something that she is not excited to sell. So that was a really good breakup, you know and then and then it was, you know, A whole long time again of, you know, I got a couple of different agents.

They tried to sell things that didn’t sell. And then I found Bookature on my own without an [00:11:00] agent because Bookature allows you to submit to them directly and that’s a digital publisher. And that’s where I am now. So that’s the trajectory.

David Gwyn: That’s cool. And, and I do, I’m, I’m really curious how you’re finding, because obviously you went through a couple different agents, that’s through your, you know, that’s the way you have gone through publishing, and now you’re, you’re on your own a little bit.

Just talk about what that experience is like, anything that’s, you know, surprising that happened along the way, or anything that stands out as, you know, as making that a really positive experience.

Ellie Monago: Yes. Yes. Well, what I would say is that I didn’t know this when I started out, but that really very much all agents are not created equal.

Because I think when you first start looking that what you’re thinking is, I just want an agent. That’s really what you’re thinking. But if you don’t land with someone who works well with you, if you don’t land with someone who has the right contacts, if you don’t land, you know, like I’ve had, you know, two agents since breaking up with my Harper Collins agent the one who got me to deal with [00:12:00] Harper Collins and who were not able to sell projects.

And one wasn’t even able to communicate very well with, with me, you know, as a client. Like she wasn’t very editorial and I needed someone more editorial. And I just think that you one of the things I’ve kind of learned is it really does matter if you find the right person and, and and you don’t always know as, as much as you want to, like, you want to be able to tell from that initial conversation and sometimes you, you can’t so much and and so I think one of the things about kind of going it alone in a way is that like, The upside is that you’re only keeping your own counsel.

Like the upside is that you’re, you’re kind of honing your own instincts about like, what do I need to do? How do I need to edit? You have some, I’ve trusted friends and readers and they read for me. And and I would say finding Bookature that it’s been really positive just because they’re very, they’re just a really upbeat bunch and they’re and they’re savvy.

They’re really, really savvy because they’re figuring out how to differentiate their business model from traditional publishing in a real way. Like they, there are they’re using the [00:13:00] advantages that come with being a digital publisher. Like they can be really nimble. They can switch up your cover copy.

In fact, they have switched up my cover copy a few times. They, they can switch up your cover. They can pull it. They can switch your book title name and they can just do things that traditional publishing can. And they study the data and they look at algorithms and they, you know, they’ve got a lot of like, they’re looking at like who’s clicking through on the ads and what do we do and how do we target?

And, you know, so they’re doing all sorts of things that are really different than what I experienced with traditional publishing. And I find that really, really exciting.

David Gwyn: Wow. Yeah. That’s really interesting. I hadn’t heard that. And now I’m thinking like, Just how nimble, and I hadn’t really thought about how nimble a digital first publisher could be.

I imagine that that helps a lot, because I feel like if something goes into print, sometimes you’re like panicking that last moment. You’re like, is everything the way it’s supposed to be? And it’s really hard to change. And I love having people on like you, who talk really candidly about the industry, because it is, it’s true, like [00:14:00] this industry, and the more people I have on here, the more I realize that like, That linear, just, find an agent, sell your book, go off into the sunset and sell more books, like, nobody has that.

Almost nobody has that experience. It’s such a rare experience. And the more common experience is, There’s like zigzag of like, find an agent, like maybe sell a book or maybe not, and go back into the query trenches and like take a couple of years off. Like that, that zigzag is much more common. And I think that’s great for people to hear.

I think it takes a lot of pressure off of, you know, Oh, this is like the last agent I’m going to find, or this is the last book I’ll get a chance. It’s like, no, it’s like this industry is, is tricky. It’s tricky to, to navigate. And I, I’m glad I love to hear that. And I think it’s true, I hear more and more people talking about indie publishers are just really stepping up their game.

I think that’s awesome.

Okay, I want to pause here because I really feel like this is true. I’ve done a ton of interviews and no two authors have the same publishing story And sometimes when you hear these things, [00:15:00] it can feel overwhelming, but really it should make you feel better, I think, because whatever journey you’re on is the right journey.

There is no wrong one. And whether you’re planning on going with an agent or submitting directly to publishers, remember what Ellie said, there’s no way to know until you get in there.

So break in whatever way you can, get a book on the shelves and start rooting around inside of publishing because it might take a few tries to figure out exactly what works for you. In the next part of the interview, Ellie talks about the changes she’s noticed over time in publishing, and she shares the pros and cons of having an agent versus submitting to smaller publishers.

Just as a reminder, I write a weekly newsletter through Thriller 101 with exclusive information, advice, and updates you can only get from the newsletter. I talk about goal setting, systems, productivity, and I share the best resources and advice for thriller writers from all around the internet. If you want to level up your writing skills, be sure to subscribe.

There’s a link in the description where you can do that.

Let’s head back to the interview.

And so for people who are listening who are like, Oh [00:16:00] yeah, that sounds cool. Is there something you wish you knew going into the experience ?

Ellie Monago: Bookature is a way of, yeah, the cutting out the middleman has been a really interesting experience because I don’t think I ever, Thought I would be able to cut out the middleman because I always thought I had to go traditional because I’m not a, I’m not a marketing guru.

Like I’m not a person who, like, I don’t do much social media personally or professionally. Like I always felt like I need the machinery, you know? And so I thought, well, I can’t go for something that is a smaller trade publisher or a smaller something. Cause I thought, well, then you need to bring a lot of the marketing was sort of my thought.

I have no idea if that’s a correct thing. And so yeah, so even after you’re in this industry a long time and talking to a lot of people,

David Gwyn: well, I feel like things are changing a lot

Ellie Monago: too, all

David Gwyn: the time.

Ellie Monago: Yes, which I think is really exciting because I, I feel like the idea that I think traditional publishing, like it, it used to feel like it was the gold standard and everything else is sort of a tier or two. Yeah. beneath it. And I don’t feel that way anymore, [00:17:00] especially because I don’t feel that it’s necessary.

The mark of quality is whether you were picked up by Simon and Schuster versus Bookature versus like, there’s good books being published, like in all different ways, you know, through all different, like, and, and I kind of sometimes think there is that thing, right, where, oh, you know, There’s a lot of schlock published all the time.

That’s kind of the truth of it. And I don’t think that they’re, they’re exclusively vetting things from, you know, the big five and that they’re the arbiter of everything. And so I like a big playing field for, for everybody. And I’m hoping that’s the way things are going because then that can hopefully get more people reading that can get more writers feeling like they’re not boxed out of things because there is a real fear of like, your sales track record isn’t good.

Right. How do I get my next agent? How do I get a book? How does the agent sell me I feel like maybe you don’t have to worry quite as much about that. You can worry more about the work that you’re actually producing. You get more chances, you know, more, more venues, more chances.

David Gwyn: Yeah, I think that’s such a great way to think [00:18:00] about it and I couldn’t agree more I do think there’s these like smaller Publishers that are popping up that are more niche that are like Very specific about what types of books I think that’s great I think it’s great for readers too because you fall into a niche you fall into a Publisher that has the books that you’re looking for.

And then you just, you know, you can just comb through their, their categories and, and their, their books. I think it’s great. I think it’s great for readers. I think it’s great for writers too. , how happy are you with non agent versus agent? Like, do you, do you have any wishes to go back to an agent or are you thinking like this is, you really enjoy kind of managing your own,

Ellie Monago: Yes.

You know, it’s, it’s tricky because there are ways that I’m having an agent. Sometimes you have someone who you can bounce things off. Like you can go to them and you can say, I’m not crazy about the cover. I’m not crazy about this. Or should I say something or should I not say something? Or you kind of have to make all those decisions on your own, right?

You have to decide you, you have to be your own advocate. If you don’t have an agent [00:19:00] at the same time, you’re not, you know, subject to the constraints of what someone else wants to sell on your behalf. Like you’re also your own, your own agent. You’re deciding, I really believe in this, right? So you’re not getting shot down by anyone.

Cause one of the things I’m a person who has like a lot of, a lot of different ideas and a lot of different things that I feel like I could write. And if I take it to the agent and I say, which of these should I write? You know, and then I go with that. Sometimes I’ve overruled my own instincts, honestly.

And and, and we don’t have kind of a sliding door scenario where I can see, well, what if I had done this or what have I done that, you know? And but I wonder sometimes I think, right, like if you didn’t try to write to the market or you didn’t try to write to what your agent said was where things are headed, you know, when you wrote something you felt like a little more passionate about, would you have gotten a different outcome?

And so it So it’s, it’s, the answer is a lot rests on your shoulders and and that’s, that’s all sometimes really great and sometimes a little bit heavy.

David Gwyn: I’ve never heard the pros and cons articulated more clearly than that. I think [00:20:00] that was like a very well done. And I’ve heard, I’ve heard great things about Bookature and I have I know a few people who publish there and they really like it.

So that’s great. So my last question for you is just where can people find you? Where can people look you up?

Ellie Monago: Yes, so on goodreads is the primary place and then you can you can always do like ask an author questions there and then I just have an email kind of listed on the bookture site as well So like I was saying i’m not i’m not big on social media But i’m really big on interaction like I actually really like when people send me an email answering.

I really like Doing this and doing interviews and doing panels and talking to people. And yes, I’m terrible at tweeting. don’t, I don’t, it’s just not what I’m built for. You know, that’s people who are good at it. Cause when they’re good at it, you can see it. Right. And when they’re forcing it, you can see that too.

So I’m not really forcing it, but I love to hear from readers, you know? And so people want to send me messages through Goodreads or emails or anything or, or have, you know, or want me to talk to their book club or anything along those lines, I absolutely love all of that.

David Gwyn: [00:21:00] Very cool. So I will link to some of that stuff.

So you’ve got quick access to Ellie. Ellie, this is so much fun. Go out if you’re, if you’re listening to this a hundred percent go pick up. The custody battle it’s an absolute ride. It’s so much fun to read. Thank you so much

Ellie Monago: oh, thank you. This is great.

David Gwyn: Okay. So that’s it. I thought Ellie does an amazing job of laying out what to think about when taking on a publishing career. I know it’s taking longer for agents to get back to authors and longer for editors to get back to agents.

And it feels like everything is moving so slowly. But all that should be is just a reminder to go back to the things you can control. Work on your craft, write well, pitch well, and above all else, enjoy the journey you’re on. Next time on the podcast, I’ll be talking to Matt Shao about a book that isn’t out yet, but it’s a great companion episode for this one because Matt’s going to share where he is in the process now and give us a peek inside what happens after you sign with the publisher and before your book comes out.

It’s a valuable peek behind the publishing curtain, and it’ll be out next week, so [00:22:00] be sure to subscribe, and I’ll see you then.