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🗓 Previously…

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🎙 Interview

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📇 Biography

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📜 Transcript

Douglas Corleone

Douglas Corleone: [00:00:00] I think that genres are evolving more and more are meshing together.

More themes are being related.

David Gwyn: Welcome to Thriller 1 0 1, where we dive deep into the craft of writing, with today’s most compelling authors. I’m your host, David Gwyn, and in today’s episode we’re joined by Douglas Corleone, author of The New Psychological Thriller, falls to Pieces.

He’s here to explore the evolving landscape of thrillers, sub-genres, and how to navigate them effectively as a writer. If you’ve ever struggled with where your manuscript fits in the marketplace, or wondered how to stand out in a crowded genre while still meeting reader expectations, and this conversation is gonna help you out,

doug shares how he successfully moved between sub-genres while maintaining his unique voice and themes. You’re gonna learn how to approach themes in your fiction that resonate with readers why running to the quote unquote edge of the boundaries in your genre can make your work more distinctive. And the importance of delivering unexpected endings that stick with [00:01:00] readers long after they finish your book.

Whether you’re crafting your first thriller or looking to evolve your writing in a new direction. , Doug’s insights here will help you navigate genre expectations while creating work. That stands out. Alright, let’s get into it.

Doug, thanks so much for being here. I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with us on the Thriller 1 0 1 Podcast.

Douglas Corleone: Thank you for.

David Gwyn: Yeah. I’m really excited to chat with you. I, I think it’s gonna be really interesting and, and something that.

I’ve been thinking about and, and writers that I know have been, have been thinking about , which is like genres and sub genres within the thriller space. And I know you have a ton of experience there, so I’m really excited to dig in there. But before we do, I wanna say congratulations ’cause falls to pieces will be out by the time people hear this.

And I always like to, I’m like, from the future here, telling you congratulations in your book is not quite out yet. So that’s super exciting,

Douglas Corleone: Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

David Gwyn: Yeah. And so can you tell us a little bit about what this story’s about?

Douglas Corleone: Yeah. I, when I wrote foster pieces, I set out to write a book about a rocky mother-daughter [00:02:00] relationship. You know, the, the influences that were on my mind at the time William Landes, defending Jacob. I actually, I got a terrific blurb from William and, laura Dave’s the last thing he told me, which was about a mother and stepdaughter relationship and Kim Kimberly Mccress reconstructing Amelia.

And I kind of wanted to, you know, write about a teenager ’cause they’re probably the least understood. We all go through our teenager years, we suddenly look back at them and say, Hey, what’s wrong with these teenagers? And you know, I tried to you know, demonstrate a little bit about. What is wrong with some of the teenagers?

You know, what they go through how strong their feelings are, how much they have to keep quiet before they really come into them, their selves. They’re really just, you know, parts of their parents until they develop a personality of their own. [00:03:00] And it’s a very challenging time for them and. You know, I always hear how challenging it is for the parents and I, and I don’t hear as much sympathy for the kids.

And I remember being 17, I remember being 15, and I had a tough time back then, and I, you know, I, I acted out in ways I, you know, I wish I didn’t, obviously 30 some odd years later. But I still remember things viscerally and you know, and I, I also, I have complex PTSD and from early childhood trauma.

And so this is an important issue to me. I began my legal career. Back when I was 17 and still in high school, I was an intern at the Sex Crimes Unit of the Morris County Prosecutor’s Office. And one of my main jobs was transcribing interviews of, you know different subjects and it, [00:04:00] it, it was just horrifying.

And what got to me most was that. People don’t only not understand how, you know, how ubiquitous this is, they don’t even know when it’s happening in their own house. And to me, that’s one of the biggest concerns and one of the biggest ways that we might be able to change is, of course, you know, these, these are, these are difficult subjects.

But when we close our ears to them, you know. Other people suffer. Children suffer and. It’s really a type of, you know, it often becomes generational trauma. You know, one parent, you know, is abused and winds up abusing their child. Maybe, maybe subconsciously, maybe not. You know victims of trauma have a lot of anger and when that comes out to a child, it’s very [00:05:00] scary.

You know. They’re, they’re helpless, especially if you know, the abuser is their caregiver.

David Gwyn: Hmm. Yeah, no, thank you for sharing that. I, I think I always, I always love to hear authors talk. About the themes that are in their book. I think a lot of writers and you know, there’s a podcast where a lot of people listen because they’re writers. They, they often think about plot, they think about character, they think about, you know, are the twists of my thriller, you know, strong enough and, and all these things.

And it’s not that those things aren’t important, but I, I always find when I talk to writers, and one of the first things they gravitate towards is the theme of what they’re writing. I almost always find that their books are the ones that really do well. They’re the ones who find readers. They’re the ones who make an impact in, in this industry that is, you know, it’s crowded, it’s a crowded, it’s a crowded profession, and I always find that.

And so I always love hearing you know, writers like yourself, talking about themes. And is that something that you set out to write in this story, or is that something that you like [00:06:00] found along the way as you were writing? Like, did you marry these ideas, like plot character with, with this theme, or was this like.

Hey, I’m starting with this idea of theme. How do I weave the plot around it?

Douglas Corleone: No, definitely. It’s actually a large theme in a lot of my books. In different ways. Sometimes the heroes suffered the trauma, sometimes another character. For instance, I wrote a series of. Legal thrillers in which a defense attorney named Kevin Corelli moved from Manhattan to Honolulu to practice law to escape a terrible event that happened back in back in New York.

And you know, he would help people and they happen to be, you know, not only criminal defendants, but victims of other things, you know, victims of trauma. So really in, in, in essence, I’ve been right in psychological thrillers, you know, for the past 20 years. But they all look different. One of them, you know, one of them’s packaged that was Robert [00:07:00] Ludlums, the Janssen Equation.

But it very much goes into, how Paul Jansen, who is a Jason Bourne like character you know, he try, how, how he sees himself versus how his partner Jessica Kincaid sees him. And, you know, at one point he questions whether he’s a monster and so, so. Even my espionage novel, you know, goes pretty deep into the psyche.

And then I had a series that was very important to me. The Simon Fisk thrillers and they were about a former US Marshal who rescues children. Who were brought overseas against US custody auditors. And you know, he had trauma in his history. His daughter had been taken 10 years earlier, so he was very passionate about it.

And, you know, so they, they were driven a lot more by, action movies like Taken and the, the transporter. [00:08:00] But I go very deeply into the psychological aspects of losing a child and, you know and a lot of it’s difficult and some people read to escape and I understand that. I don’t know if you know, but, falls to pieces is a first reads this month and so there’s a lot of reviews up already. There’s over, yeah, there’s over 1100 reviews already, and so far it’s been, it’s been pretty polarizing. People either love it or hate it,

David Gwyn: but I bet you love that as a writer, don’t you? Like that’s, I feel like that in some ways is a, is a good sign. You know that people are gonna really love it and maybe it’s not for everybody, but that’s okay. ’cause the people who like it are gonna love

Douglas Corleone: Yeah, the, the problem is you know, when your ratings do go down, people, people start to, to, to avoid it. And and, and, and that makes me sad. So I. I’m hoping that it does balance out the fact that there’s a little controversy behind it. Just because I think it’s an important book [00:09:00] and I, I, I’d really like to get it in as many hands as possible.

And you know, and I, I, I think it’s worth the six to eight hours it takes to read.

David Gwyn: Yeah. Cool. So tell me, so you, you’ve kind of outlined a lot of the fun writing stuff that you’ve written in the past and, and I’m curious what’s in the future for you? How much can you tell us about, you know, what’s coming up for you? Either what you’re working on now, or, or, you know, maybe something that’s a little further along in the process.

Douglas Corleone: about to start editing my next novel with Thomas and Mercer. It’s called Live Through This and it’s set on a rural college campus in in. Eastern Pennsylvania which is where I went for two of my four years of college. Freshman and junior.

Being from New Jersey, I loved it out there. It was, you know, it was a totally different atmosphere. It was, for me, it was the grunge era. So, you know, I got to walk around in my flannels and Timberlands and, and my dirty football cap and so the [00:10:00] book it takes place on the college campus and the main character Greg Dryer is going to homecoming after 30 years.

But he has an agenda. He’s he wants to know what happened to, he had a girlfriend for just three weeks to, you know, after freshman orientation. And what she is to him, it’s, it’s his first love. Even though the relationship didn’t last long, 30 years later, he’s still thinking about her and there’s a question as to whether she committed suicide or whether she was pushed off the roof of of the, of the dorm building.

And he goes and investigates and you know, tries to find some answers and also some redemption because at the time his life is spiraling downward.

David Gwyn: Okay. I wanna pause here for just a second because I wanna point out how clearly Doug is able to explain his book.

That clear pitch and premise is so valuable [00:11:00] if you can’t do that with the work that you’re on. You really have to start ironing that out. Take a little bit of time and organize your thoughts so that you can get your pitch down to 30 seconds or less. I mean, tell us about the character, the setting, the conflict, the stakes, and then end with that slight cliffhanger and that way it’ll be wrapped up in a nice, neat little bow that agents and readers will love

in the next section of the text, Doug and I talk about sub-genres and he provides some really interesting insights that you are going to love about how he thinks about creating different stories. Alright, let’s get back into it.

I wanna shift gears a little bit and just talk about, actually, it’s kind of something that we’ve been talking about, which is the sub genres that you’ve been doing. You’ve kind of been within Thriller, but now bouncing around from one sub genre to the next here.

And, and so I’m really curious about how you navigate this. Like are you thinking at all about sub genres or are you really just like, you follow the story where it goes, and if it’s a lawyer who’s doing it, it’s legal, and if it’s not, like how, how [00:12:00] are you navigating those as you kind of take on new projects?

Douglas Corleone: I kind of you know, I, when I started writing, I started writing legal thrillers because I was a lawyer. I was a criminal defense lawyer in Manhattan. Who moved to Honolulu because of an event. It wasn’t a professional event like it is for Kevin Corelli. But there was an event. And so I, you know, they say, write what, you know.

I literally wrote what I know. You know, people thought I was Kevin Corelli, you know, the, my agent was calling me Kevin, and. No, don’t mix me up because the guy, you know, don’t get, don’t get me wrong. The guy’s a good guy, but he’s, you know, he’s got his own way of doing things and he might be considered an anti-hero by some and he’s a criminal defense attorney, so automatically suspect. So you know, I did the autobiographical thing and and then I kind of the series did well critically, but not commercially. [00:13:00] And my editor really liked working with me and she said, we’d love to see something new from you. And so I, I was actually in Connecticut working on a federal case at the time.

I was kind of dabbling in the law while, you know, while, while still while writing. And I had read this one page article about this private investigator who, who travels to foreign countries and. Brings these kids back to America. You know, if you know, if there’s a child custody order that’s per say even, ’cause even France, they don’t automatically enforce child, US child custody orders.

So you know. He always did these parental abductions, but he gets arrested in France and winds up. This is my character, Simon Fisk. Winds up you know. Basically give an ultimatum spend years in a French [00:14:00] prison, or help us find this American girl who went missing from her parents’ hotel room in Paris.

And he want, and this is all, you know, it came from one article about one private investigator who actually does this kind of work and. I, yeah, I, I did four books on Simon Fisk and, you know, he travels a lot through Western Europe. In the second book payoff, he travels through Latin America. And I.

And in the fourth book, he actually travels to Africa. So it was really, I I, I got to experience a lot of the world through him. And and, and a lot of the, the different forms of government and you know, how things work and some of the, some of the plots are, are complex, but. They’re straightforward and you know, it’s to me he’s good is Gone, which was the first book Is, is, is my favorite book that I wrote up until Fall to Pieces.

So.

David Gwyn: Oh wow. [00:15:00] Wow. And so tell me a little bit about when you’re, when you’re taking on these diff different sub genres within Thriller, how are you thinking about. Meeting reader expectations, right? Because there’s a certain expectation within these sub-genres, but also creating your own twist on it. Like how, how are you navigating that?

Like, how closely are you thinking about, or how much are you thinking about, hey, what a reader expects versus how I’m gonna do something different. So my book stands out.

Douglas Corleone: Yeah, I try not to pay too much attention to the boundaries. I know where they are. I think that’s sufficient. You know, if you’re running down the sideline and you know, you might step out of bounds. You wanna play it as close as you can because that’s you know, that’s you’ll, you’ll get farther.

And so that’s what I kind of do. I kind of run along the edge of the boundaries. And, you know, sometimes I might step out of bounds and usually when I do my editor or my. Pull me back in. But yeah, it’s gonna [00:16:00] happen. And I, I think, yeah, I, I think that genres are evolving more and more are meshing together.

More themes are being related. What I really like now for instance, I got a. Wonderful blurb from Riley Sager who writes you know, kind of these, this horror mixed with psychological thrillers. So I, I, I call it psychological horror, I guess. And that’s another area that I am you know, I, I’ve been writing in and I’ve been working on a couple different projects, so.

David Gwyn: Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. I feel like I talk to a lot of writers. I talk to a lot of unpublished writers and, and obviously authors as yourself. And it is interesting because a lot of writers are, you know, they’re, they’re worried about staying in the middle of the field, and I love that idea that you’re saying like, no, no, like, like go to the boundary and maybe, you know, in your first novel, you, you don’t go like you, you make sure you don’t step over.

But on later ones like. There are people who are gonna put the guardrails for you. You know, you’re gonna have an editor, you’re gonna have an agent who [00:17:00] are gonna say like, ah, you know what, bring you back a little bit. But I do like that advice for people to, to remember, like, you have to, you can’t just run down the middle of the field or your book’s gonna sound like every other book that’s out there.

You have to, you have to go to the

Douglas Corleone: Because I, I, you know, obviously I’m a big reader. You know, I, I try to read at least a hundred novels a year and you know, and I like to read in all different genres, but you know, particularly psychological drillers recently and domestic drillers, and I think somehow. Those two domestic thrillers and psychological thrillers.

While some books are both, like for instance, on girl is really both a lot of these domestic thrillers are called psychological thrillers and they barely touch the surface. And and a lot of them just, I, I can remember the premise. The premise is great, the hook is great, and then. It goes in the direction you absolutely know it’s gonna go [00:18:00] and you wind up forgetting what the ending was.

And to me, if you forget what the ending is, that’s, that’s, that’s not the sign of a great novel. Like I can remember con, you know, you know, I, I don’t know if I, if there’s still spoiler alerts about Gone Girl.

David Gwyn: I think it’s passed. It’s passed. You’re outta, you’re outta that.

Douglas Corleone: The fact she was pregnant, you know, blew me away. And it’s something you know, that, that stayed with me. And I do like to give that final twist at the end of a book. You know, that makes a reader turn their head and, you know, some, some. Online critics, you know some, some reviewers get upset and say, yeah, oh, that’s farfetched.

This is a and you know, I kind of feel like you know, if they knew, you know, it’s ’cause it’s ev it’s about everybody else’s world experience. And some people live a very sheltered experience and you know, I don’t know who’s luckier to be honest. You know, [00:19:00] I’ve, I’ve, I’ve traveled the world and I’ve, I’ve, I, I’ve, I’ve been through a lot and so I, I have a lot of this knowledge that I’d probably rather not have.

And then I meet people, you know, for instance, source here. It’s their first time off the mainland and, and you know, they’ve been very sheltered and, and, you know, I, I try to connect with them and you know, it’s just you know, trying to find a balance.

David Gwyn: Doug, this has been so much fun. I have really enjoyed this conversation. This has been really great. My last question for you is just where can people find you? Where can people look you up?

Douglas Corleone: Www.douglascorleone.com is my website. As humble as it is. And of course you can find my books on Amazon. They’re also in Barnes and Noble on Barnes and Noble’s website. And yeah, I’m just about anywhere else. If they Google falls to pieces and Douglas Corleone, they’ll find it.

David Gwyn: Nice. Great. So I’ll, I’ll link to [00:20:00] some of that stuff in the description for this episode. So people are listening can have quick access. Doug, like I said, this was so much fun. I really

time to chat.

Douglas Corleone: Same here. Thanks so much, Dave.

David Gwyn: Okay, and that’s it. I was particularly struck by Doug’s approach to genre boundaries, how he likes to stay at the far edge of whatever they are, but still in bounds.

This perspective is really important for us as writers to think about so that we’re creating fresh, distinctive work that still satisfies reader expectations. ,

On today’s episode, we learned that the most memorable thrillers often blend sub-genres and incorporate meaningful themes that resonate with readers on a deeper level. We talked about how Doug weaves personal experiences and important themes and into commercially viable fiction.

And why creating endings that readers won’t forget is really important to standing out in today’s crowded market.

so here’s your writing challenge for this week. Take a scene from your current manuscript and purposefully push it to the boundary or to the edge of whatever genre you’re working in.

If you’re writing a legal thriller, maybe incorporate elements of psychological [00:21:00] suspense if you’re crafting a domestic thriller experiment with horror elements. The goal isn’t to give up or abandon your genre entirely, but rather to find out where the edge of your work becomes uniquely yours.

Thanks for hanging out with me. Please rate, review, and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts. And as always, remember to keep writing because publishing success happens for the writers who don’t give up.

I’ll see you next week.