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🗓 Last Time

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🎙 Interview

Free 5-Day Email Mini-Course on Hooking a Literary Agent with Your First Pages: Time to find out if your opening is ready for a literary agent

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📇 Biography

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📜 Transcript

Catherine McKenzie

Catherine McKenzie: [00:00:00] I call myself a pantser, but I’m probably really more of a hybrid.

So I don’t write long detailed outlines, but I do spend a lot of time thinking about the book. And I always know the end before it starts. Often I see like an end scene. And then I, I know some of the big twists slash secrets that people have.

David Gwyn: Hey, everyone. If you’ve ever taken on a dual timeline or multiple point of view novel, you know, it comes with its own unique challenges. Luckily, our guest today is going to help us navigate this with some advice that genuinely shocked me. I mean, I was speechless. But before we get into the interview, I want to tell you about something that I put together for you that is completely free.

If you’re a listener of the thriller 1 0 1 podcast. If you’re here, you’re obviously trying to improve your opening pages. And so I put together something really special that I think you’re going to like

and something that I think you’re going to find a lot of value in. And it’s completely free. It’s a new five day email mini course designed to help you Polish [00:01:00] those opening pages and get more full requests. You can find a link to sign up in the description and I’ll send you emails every day for five days.

So that you can land the agent of your dreams.

Oh, and make sure to hang out to the end because I’m going to be sharing one tip from the mini course at the end of this episode. I’m David Gwyn an agented writer navigating the world of traditional publishing during this first season of the thriller one-on-one podcast, we’re going to focus on building the skills necessary to write the kinds of thrillers that land you and agent and readers.

I’m talking to agents and authors about the best way to write a novel. If you want the experts secrets, this is where you’re going to find them. Last week on the podcast, I shared an insanely informative interview with literary agent Emmy Nordstrom Higdon. In which they reviewed a submission to the thriller one-on-one podcast.

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: Honestly, like, so the thing that stood out to me is that the writer knows how to start in the action of a scene without, like, hitting you over the head with it, which I think is [00:02:00] really, really difficult to do. From the first couple lines, like, there’s already stuff happening

David Gwyn: Emmy, you shared so many valuable insights.

Definitely check out that episode. If you haven’t yet, it’s linked in the description. Today’s guest is Catherine McKenzie. She was born and raised in Montreal, Canada. She’s a graduate of McGill university in history and law, and she practiced law for 20 years before leaving to write full time. An avid runner skier and tennis player.

She’s the author of numerous best-sellers including I’ll Never Tell. And The Good Liar. Uh, her works have been translated into multiple languages and I’ll never tell, and please join us. Have both been optioned for development into television series. Let’s get into the interview.

Catherine, thanks so much for being here for an interview. I really appreciate you making the time to chat.

Catherine McKenzie: Thanks for having me again.

David Gwyn: Yeah. So it’s funny. I, I looked up when we talked. Last year. And it was last year yesterday. So we’re, we’re nothing if not consistent.

Catherine McKenzie: Wow. Okay. Should we just [00:03:00] book this time next year?

David Gwyn: Right now? I was thinking the same thing. I was like, I guess I know what I’ll be doing one year from now.

And the last time we talked you shared this really awesome interview. And people who are listening, I’ll link it below about like kind of persevering through the query process and really just the writing process in general. And I thought it was really, really interesting to hear from somebody who’s had as much success as you talk about, you know, just writing in general and how much, how much struggle there is.

So if you’re listening, definitely check that out. It was a really great interview.

Catherine McKenzie: The struggle is real. Yeah.

David Gwyn: Exactly. But now we’re back and we can talk about your newest thriller, which we, we had brushed on like. Very briefly because I think you had announced it, but couldn’t really talk much about it So can you talk a little bit about Have You Seen Her?

Catherine McKenzie: So Have You Seen Her is about a woman named Cassie Peters who is Fleeing her life in New York City to return home to the Mammoth Lakes Yosemite area She’s left ten years earlier and she’s gonna join the search and rescue [00:04:00] squad in Yosemite and soon after she does that, a couple goes missing in the park, and it has echoes of another couple that went missing ten years earlier, whose disappearance she was also involved in.

David Gwyn: Yeah, such a, it was such a fun read it was awesome, and, and I’m curious, where did this idea come from?

Catherine McKenzie: So my sister and brother in law were on the search and rescue squad in Yosemite for five years, about 15 years ago. And oddly, I never got a chance to actually go to Yosemite when they were doing that.

Timing didn’t work out, but I’d always, I was always interested in it and they told me stories over the years and then during the pandemic, they moved back to the area. And I was spending time with them and I went to Yosemite for the first time and we have been talking. I have been talking about maybe writing a TV show that was set there.

And I had been quizzing them for tell me crazy things that happened, you know, like, and [00:05:00] how does this work and how does that work? And I, like, I even had, like, a Google document with notes. And so that was already on my mind as a setting for something. And then Gabby Petito went missing in the Grand Teton National Park, which is another park that I’ve spent a lot of time in.

And I think, even before I knew what happened to Gabby, or we knew what happened to her I think, you know, Brian, she and Brian were both missing. And I think because I had already been thinking about doing something in that space it just sparked something. And then another couple also disappeared around the same time and was eventually found murdered.

And they had, it was a gay couple and they had spent the night in the same campground as Gabby and her boyfriend in Utah. Yeah, and so, I mean, it’s the sort of thing that book writers kind of salivate over, right? And, and I’m not telling any of their stories, obviously, and[00:06:00] without giving it away, I like to say that I wish that this was Gabby’s story as opposed to what actually happened to her.

But, so that was the initial spark of it. And yeah, I just thought that was all very interesting, and I like, I, I’ve written other books where people intersect. In interesting environments. And so I kind of like that, that idea as

David Gwyn: well. Yeah. And I think it’s funny listening to you say that it feels very much like the way these kinds of things come together.

Like you’re not, you’re, you start by looking for something and then stuff starts to find you and you start to connect different things together. And that’s really kind of how you build a story. And I think that’s really interesting. And so. I’m curious, I’m thinking about our last conversation about Please Join Us, and I’m, I’m wondering if there’s something about a story, whatever story it is, that like, is there something that when you think of the premise or the characters, what is it that you’re like, okay, I’m ready to tell this story now, like this is the [00:07:00] one I’m going to spend a year on or

whatever

Catherine McKenzie: it is.

Right. Yeah. I mean, I’ve written about this. I call it. I’m looking for things that are sticky TM but yeah, so it is something that has to stick with me because I do get, well, I mean, I think I do in a non hubristic way to describe myself as the Shonda Rhimes of Canada to somebody in a pitch meeting last week, but by, by which I mean, I have lots of ideas all the time.

But that doesn’t mean that they turn into a book, and sometimes an idea is, you know, good for a TV show, or it’s good for a movie, or it’s good for a book, or it’s just not right now. And I, I do have books that sometimes took me years to find the right way into, to that idea. This one came together pretty quickly.

But, yeah, I’m, I’m looking for something that, like a story that won’t leave me alone. Where I can see the end, and I can see the twists, and like, I feel propelled. To write it down and you know, it’s kind of like, I don’t [00:08:00] know, I’m sure your women listeners will understand, but like sometimes you go into a store and you see something and you’re like, am I going to buy this sweater or whatever?

And then I often won’t buy it the first time I see it, but if I’m still thinking about it a week later, then I’m like, yes, I do need this sweater. And you know, book ideas are kind of like that because you do spend so much time. It has to be something that. I feel intrigued by and propelled by past just a flash thought.

Because like you say, I’m going to spend the next, you know, two years of my life really between thinking about it, writing it, editing it, promoting it. You know, I, I started writing this book in the summer of 2021. So and now we’re still talking about it in the fall of 2023, you know, so and that’s normal.

That’s totally the normal. That’s a fast, normal cycle. So yeah, that’s what I’m looking for. And, and, and I have books that, you know, sometimes part of it has come to me and the other [00:09:00] parts have not come to me for years. And, you know, I put those in the idea file and, which I take out every once

David Gwyn: in a while.

Look over and see if anything sticks.

Catherine McKenzie: Yeah,

David Gwyn: exactly. That’s great. So a perfect segue, almost like I planned it. So what are you working on now? Well,

Catherine McKenzie: that I can’t say. I have sold something. I’m super excited about it. It’s a bit of a different direction for me, but still in the mystery space. But yeah, it’s a secret.

All right. I won’t push. I won’t push. No, no, no, no. It’s fine. Exciting things are happening. And definitely by this time next year. We can talk about it. I was going to say, our next chat. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Our next chat, we can talk all about it. Perfect. Um, But yeah. It’s a perfect example of out talking about what it is.

That was where I’d had a premise for something for a long time. And then I found a new way into that premise years later.

David Gwyn: Are you still, and maybe this has changed now with, with this news, but [00:10:00] you, you were for a while doing, is it two books a year between Thriller and then Romance, right? Right.

Catherine McKenzie: Yeah. Well, I do still have a Romance coming out next year. So I will have two books out next year. And then we’ll see if I keep up that pace afterwards.

But yeah, I have just the cover actually just got revealed today. It’s called Chloe Baker’s. See what good timing you have, David. I know, this is crazy. It’s called Chloe Baker’s Lost Date, and it’s about a woman who goes on a blind date, and he’s late. And somebody shows up for the date, and they have kind of a magical day together.

And then he has to rush off, and she reaches out, and it turns out she was not on a date with who she thought she was. So, he’s lost, and she needs to find him. So it’s, it’s like a fun

Book of the Month Club. She, she picks the rom com selections for a Book of the Month Club. And it’s under my pseudonym Katie Wicks. And it’s coming out May 7th, [00:11:00] 2024.

David Gwyn: I’m so curious, and I think we talked, we touched on this a little bit last time, and I remember thinking, like, I should have asked her more questions, like, how are you, how are you, do you find it, like, refreshing to go from one to the other?

Because I think you write them at the same time, right?

Catherine McKenzie: Yeah, I’m often working on two projects at once. Okay. Or more. But, I, yeah, I, I split up my day, and so, I work on, like, whatever the thorniest project is. That needs like my biggest brain power. I tend to work on that in the morning because that’s my good thinking time.

And then, and not to say like my rom coms don’t need my brain power, but it’s just a different kind of thing. So I, yeah, I don’t know. I’ll do something like I’ll work out or I’ll go play tennis or have lunch, all that, and then I’ll have a second session in the afternoon and work on a different project.

And yeah, I mean, I think it is.

The reason I started writing rom coms was because, or went back to them, was because, you know, writing thrillers is, like, it’s dark. Have you seen her? [00:12:00] I think it’s entertaining and I hope there are moments of levity But you know when you’re writing about like missing people in a national park, it’s not like Yeah, and so it just takes something out of you even to write those kinds of books and live in that space So I wanted some levity from that

David Gwyn: for sure.

I see I see a fair number of Authors not necessarily doing that, but I feel like they jump around a little bit. And I think that’s an interesting way to think about it is like, it’s just, it gets. It’s tiring, I imagine, to slog through something and to have something that’s also on your plate that’s a little bit lighter and a different, just a different tone, just something that switches it

Catherine McKenzie: up.

Yeah. And I mean, never say never, but like, you know, I, I, I was lucky enough to just do an event with Kathy Rikes where I was asking the questions and you know, she’s just, it’s book 22 in her series that has come out and to spend that much time with characters and. And, [00:13:00] you know, each mystery is different, obviously, but you are still kind of telling the same story over and over again.

The challenge there, obviously, is making it fresh and interesting for your readers and, and not making it stale. But she branched out and wrote a whole series, a YA series with her son, you know? So, I think yeah, I have to keep it interesting for me, too. And I think that that comes through the writing, like, if I wasn’t interested in what I was doing, you’d be able to tell.

David Gwyn: Okay. So let’s pause there for a second. I’m always so compelled by writers who have multiple projects going on at once. I’m working through edits on my newest manuscript before sending it over to my agent. And I’m thinking I might try this next time. Is it possible for me to write two books at the same time? I guess I’ll find out soon enough. In the next part of the interview, Catherine talks about how she writes her dual timeline and multiple point of view novels.

And she shares that one piece of advice that I told you about earlier, that genuinely shocked me. So let’s get right back to the interview

oKay. So let’s, let’s talk about Have [00:14:00] You Seen Her? Because I devoured this book. I thought it was so much fun. Oh, thank you. So a couple things that I’m curious about. The first is the balancing act between different timelines and perspectives and like all kinds of stuff that you were doing. Right.

Yeah, I’m really dying to know. Whether you, did you plot this? Did you just kind of write through it? Like, when is, when does the magic happen for you with, with balancing things

Catherine McKenzie: like that? Yeah, I mean, I always say I’m sort of like a high, I call myself a pantser but I’m probably really more of a hybrid.

So I don’t write long detailed outlines, but I do spend a lot of time thinking about the book. And I always know the end before it starts. Often I see like an end scene. And then I, I know some of the big twists slash secrets that people have. And I knew like the, the who, what, when, where and why.

And so. And then in this case what you’re, what you’re referring to is, so the main character, Cassie, has a current timeline, and then also a timeline, I guess, in the [00:15:00] future, really, there’s like a flash forward at the beginning of the book, and, but there are also two other characters, Jada, who’s told through Instagram posts so yeah, I thought of that before I started writing that I was going to do that. Again, you know, one of the things that was so fascinating about Gabby’s disappearance. Was that whole online aspect to it, both the fact that her Instagram, which was not that big before she went missing, but blew up and then all the internet sleuths looking for clues and and I thought it was so interesting, you know, there’s lots of people that we kind of only know these days through their social media posts.

And like, sometimes I run into people I haven’t seen in 20 years and I’m like, Oh yeah, I know everything because I follow you on Facebook or Instagram and I do and I, I both do and don’t know them. Right. And you know, I saw a friend I hadn’t seen in four or five years a couple weeks ago. And yeah, she was telling me things she did and I’m like, yeah, I know that your sister posts all like, and it’s always like, should you bring that up or is that creepy, but like, I’m not stalking you.

It’s weird. [00:16:00] Right. Into my feed, right? And so so I wanted to explore that. I wanted also the challenge of of writing someone that you only knew through a social media post. And even then, there’s no photos. So normally in Instagram, you know, it’s a visual medium, but I only had the text. And so I had fun with that.

And then the kind of opposite, and I often like doing dualities like this in a book, but the opposite of an Instagram post, which is meant for public consumption is a diary. which is not meant for public consumption, right? Like, I, I don’t write diaries, but I’m always like, who are people writing these for?

Like, themselves? Is it a writing exercise? Are you hoping someone reads it after you’re dead? Like, you know, and, and I think the answer is different depending on who journals and when and for what reason. But I always just felt, like, way too self conscious to, like, the one or two times I ever tried, like, who is diary?

Like, dear who? Diary? Like, what? I don’t even know, you know? So so yeah, I like the idea of using that medium also to get to know [00:17:00] somebody where you would have access to, like, their innermost secrets, their innermost personality, because, like, they don’t need to filter themselves when they’re writing in that medium.

And so that was all planned. Before I started writing the book and then, yeah, the magic happens when I’m actually writing it. And sometimes, even when I finished the 1st draft, because this book ended in a. Let us say less sinister place in its first draft. Okay. And one of my editors was like, this feels like a rom com at the end, like two characters cannot go off into the sunset to Malibu.

And I was like, you’re right. Okay. I thought of the ending after I, you know, the ending that is there now, which we won’t reveal what was like an, an afterthought.

David Gwyn: I’m really curious about this, the kind of Instagram post in the diary, because it felt to me, I love when books do that.

I think part of it is it makes the book feel like, it makes it feel more real to me for some reason. Like it feels like it’s set in the [00:18:00] world because like there are world things happening at the same time. Yeah.

And I’m wondering, Was there, was there something that you read or something? Was it, was it these real life situations that you really felt like were the, the idea behind this, the spark behind using this?

Catherine McKenzie: These cases where people go missing, and we just found out how Natalie Holloway died, right, 15 years later, right, but these cases that go missing and get so much media attention, unfortunately, often with white women and, and, but people get, like, obsessed, you know, those That those killings at the university that happened like people were accusing teachers of doing it and like, you know, and, and there’s this whole online sleuthing community that like kind of operates without impunity, right?

They could just say whatever they want and accuse whoever they want and like, pull footage and be like, this person is that and it’s like, whoa, whoa, when there’s no recourse, basically. Right? And so I, that has been in the back of my mind. Like often I have, you know, themes, things where I’m like, [00:19:00] I’d really love to sort of touch on this and like, what’s the right story to do that.

And so yeah. And so that just, I think that’s how that, that played into it again, because the original inspiration was this super, super there’s a great word in French, médiatiser, but like tons of media around her disappearance. And then like I mentioned, this other couple who was a lesbian couple who like you’ve never heard of, right?

And so, and I heard of, I mean there was some media around them, but way, way, way less. And why? You know? Like they literally, the same thing was happening to them at the same time. I think it was interesting to, to explore that. I mean, that’s, that’s one of the things about writing contemporary fiction to come back to your comment about Instagram is I think it’s important for my books have been writing contemporaneously, like I’m not putting a year in them, but I want them to feel like now and timeless at the same time, you know, like I don’t want it to be [00:20:00] so now that like you could pick it up 10 years from now and be like, this had to be 2023, you know, like, I don’t want it to be like that, but I want it to feel like.

It is now. And I think sometimes you can read contemporary fiction where there’s like, nothing that makes it now, you know? Like, why is it set now? Or, conversely, sometimes people set books in the past, but I’m like, well, why did you set it here? What am I getting from this setting? So, I think there always needs to be a reason for everything that you do in a book, like intentionality, and that includes when you set it.

So if I’m gonna set it now, like, what are the issues? That we’re confronted with now, how do disappearances play out now in, in the world? Some go completely unnoticed, but others get this insane media attention. And then what’s that like to be in the middle of

David Gwyn: all of that? It’s interesting just listening to you talk about it, and stop me if I’m wrong, but it sounds to me like the sticky idea, at least for this book, [00:21:00] was almost like this thematic idea about people missing and who, who gets media attention and what that’s like.

And then you populated it with characters? Is that, am I getting that kind of right? I mean,

Catherine McKenzie: the sense of like, you know, the premise is two couples go missing in a park. Like what, what is the connection between them? And then I start thinking about, okay, well, who’s going to tell that story?

And like I said, because I, I had this connection to search and rescue and was already thinking about that. I was like, okay, a search and rescue worker can tell that story. And then I, I’m like, am I only going to have one narrator? Cause I’ve done many, many things with, I’ve had seven narrators. I’ve had one, I’ve had two, I’ve had three, I’ve had four.

So then I start making those decisions about like, okay, let’s actually hear from all the women in the couples. But how then how am I going to tell them? And so it’s, it starts fleshing out like that. And I, you know, I think sometimes theme only becomes apparent to me at the end, you know? Yeah. I mean, [00:22:00] but part of that intentionality is, is my subconscious working as well.

And when you said, you know, the way, sometimes you hear a word for the first time and then you see that word everywhere, or I heard an expression for the first time and then I heard it the next day, you know, the way that happens and little things like that happen to writers all the time, I think that is like part of the writer brain is that you’re creating those connections in your work sometimes subconsciously and you’re discovering them, you know, as you go along.

David Gwyn: Yeah, that’s so cool. I feel like it’s, it’s one of those things like and, and I, I’ve interviewed a bunch of writers for the podcast and they’re all, they all write differently. And it’s just so interesting. I love like poking in and feeling, I feel like I’m like looking at like a different world.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Catherine McKenzie: For sure. They’re writers who write scenes like out of order, you know, and and Kathy and I were actually talking about that the other day and she’s like, that’s insane. I’m like, I agree. That is [00:23:00] insane. Like, I’ve never, you know, I might sometimes have ideas for scenes that are ahead in the book and I’ll put some notes down for those scenes and maybe even a line of dialogue or something.

But the idea of just like, Writing a bunch of scenes and then connecting them together after is pure chaos to me, like, oh my god. Why would you do that? And then, I also write chronologically, but chronologically in the book. So if the book is told out of time, I still write it the way you read it, you know?

Yeah, so, and sometimes I have in the past, like earlier in my career when I’ve done that, I did sometimes pull out like, okay, I’m going to read all this timeline in order, you know, but I trained myself not to need to do that. But yeah, that’s what’s cool about writing, right?

And that’s why people’s voices are different because we all have a different process. Yeah. To get to like that same number of words on the page, you

David Gwyn: yeah. I, I think it’s so interesting. And it’s, I’m shocked to hear that [00:24:00] you did this in order. I feel like I wouldn’t even think to do that.

I would have to do then and now. Like I can’t even, I can’t even imagine. And, I just feel like it was just a masterclass in balancing.

I feel like sometimes when we, when we read books that are set in different times with different voices, it feels jarring to a reader. And I think sometimes you get into it and sometimes you don’t. And this like felt. Very seamless. you.

Catherine McKenzie: I think it’s the characters were so distinct for me. In this case, like they’re just so different that I was able to do it. But I mean, I, you know, yeah, I guess it’s my process. I just write chronologically.

So,

David Gwyn: yeah. Yeah, and the, and the twists, I won’t give anything away, but if, if you’re listening, pick up this book for the twists alone. I mean, it’s yeah, it’s a lot of fun. So yeah. So my, my last question for you is just where can people find you? Where can people look you up?

Catherine McKenzie: I am still on Twitter or whatever they’re calling it these days.

It’s C. E. Mackenzie one. If you want my political opinions and [00:25:00] occasionally book news. I have a website, CatherineMckenzie.com I am on Instagram, cathermckenzieauthor. You can also sign up for my newsletter on Substack, CatherineMcKenzieauthor. Facebook, katherinemckenzieauthor I am, do not. So now my newsletter that often just like once a month with good news only.

So yeah, those are like, actually, I’m on TikTok also. Fine.

David Gwyn: Nice. How are you finding it? , I

Catherine McKenzie: mean, I don’t know. I don’t know. I, I, I have a lot of admiration for people who can post all the time. I just like, how do you do that? And also do anything else? Cause it just can take so much time and it’s not even that the individual, well, I don’t do it very well, so my things don’t take that long to film, but it’s thinking of the content and like what it is, you know?

And so it’s, yeah, it’s crazy, but anything that [00:26:00] is encouraging people to read, is, you know, that’s a good thing for me. And so if there are people who are going to find my work and connect with it there, why not? You know?

David Gwyn: Well, I’ll link to some of that stuff and I will definitely link to your TikTok so people, people find you.

Catherine McKenzie: There’s three others. I haven’t actually looked them up yet. I should, right? You should.

David Gwyn: Yeah, we’ll find, I guess we’ll find out. You’ll find out. And we’ll, and I guess we’ll talk next year. Yeah. Cool. So thanks so much for being here. I really, really appreciate it. This is, this is great as always to talk to you.

Okay. So that’s it. Like I said, hearing Catherine writes her novels in sequential order. Like that was shocking to me. Now I’m wondering if other authors do that as well. Anyway, if you’re still here, do me a favor and rate the podcast. It helps find more listeners, which means more great guests like Catherine.

Also, I’ve had some wonderful reviews recently that I’ll be sharing on my email list.

So if you want to see your name up in lights, or at least in an email to the thriller one-on-one subscribers, then leave a review while you’re in [00:27:00] there, rating the podcast. Next time I’ll be talking to Mandy McHugh about her new novel.

It takes monsters. So subscribed. So you don’t miss when that episode drops. Okay. So here’s that one tip I told you about from my five day mini course on how to open your thriller novel.

To hook agents and readers.

This tip comes from day three and it’s all about setting.

The setting of a thriller novel is really important. Trying to nail that perfect tone and mood. It can be tricky, especially early on.

We all heard of show, don’t tell. And I’m really, honestly, not a huge fan of this rule because there are so many reasons to break it. However, when we think about setting, you also don’t want to just provide a laundry list of facts about the setting. That feels boring to readers and worse.

Literary agents will likely skip over this and go straight to the next submission.

Instead, try to reveal the setting through the character’s experiences and observations. And be sure to engage all the senses. Many of us lean heavily on one sense or [00:28:00] another. For me personally, I’m a very visual writer. When I edit, I have to actively go back and add in things like smells and tastes and sounds.

Know, your strengths and weaknesses as a writer. Ensuring that you described the sounds, smells, textures, and even tasted the environment will add depth and vividness to your setting. Remember, it’s all about pulling readers, deeper into the story you’ve crafted. I was on the shit.

No one tells you about writing podcasts when I was querying and I got a great note from literary agent CC Lira that I will remember forever. Well, she said, essentially boiled down to this, let your characters have feelings about the things around them. If it’s raining, how does your character feel about that?

If it’s dark outside and they have to go to their car, what emotions are stirred up? What are they feeling while they hear a bird chirp or a car horn ? This is a great way to develop character while revealing the setting at the same time. Everyone loves writing that does double duty and heavy lifting like this. So let readers and agents discover your setting through some [00:29:00] action and sensory details.

Allow them to feel like they’re right there with your characters.

It could make the difference between a full request.

And a form rejection.

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