---

🗓 Last Time

---

🎙 Interview

---

📇 Biography

---

📜 Transcript

Catherine Mack: [00:00:00] something that I learned through this. And if I look back on my career, like the books for me that have been the most successful, like the book that got me my first book deal and the book that has sold the most copies.

The book that sold the second most copies that broke me out in Hollywood. Like, all of those books, I was really pushing myself, I was really trying something new. So, You know, I was doing things deliberately, but I was also swinging for the fences.

David Gwyn: We’ve all had those moments where we wonder if it’s time to take on something new with our writing. Something bolder or more daring. Maybe it’s a new genre, a new point of view, different structures, something else entirely. Well imagine if, by making that brave choice, you nail it. My guest today did just that and she pulled it off so well

I’m David Gwyn, an agented writer navigating the world of traditional publishing. During this first season of the Thriller 101 podcast, we’re going to focus on building the skills necessary to write the kinds of thrillers that land you and agent and readers.

During the course of the season, I’ll be talking to [00:01:00] agents, authors, and other publishing professionals about the best way to write a novel. If you want the expert secrets, this is where you’re going to find them.

Last time on the podcast, I talked to Matt Shao about the process he’s going through between signing with the publisher and working toward publication.

Matt Shao: there’s so many different things that you learn and, And just absorb from getting to network with like minded people going through the exact same process that you’re going through when you go through something like an independent press, and being somebody that’s gone through both of those processes, is invaluable. The experience and the, the community it’s just a more fun fulfilling experience.

David Gwyn: That episode is linked in the description if you want to check that out. Today’s guest is Catherine Mack. I’ve had her on the podcast before, so if you want to hear more from her, those episodes are linked in the description.

Catherine Mack is the pseudonym for the USA Today and Globe and Mail bestselling author [00:02:00] over a dozen novels. Her books are approaching 2 million copies sold worldwide and have been translated into multiple languages including French, German, Portuguese, and Polish.

David Gwyn: Television rights to Every Time I Go On Vacation, Someone Dies, and its forthcoming sequels sold in major auction to Fox TV for development into a series with Mack writing the pilot script. A dual Canadian and U. S. citizen, she splits her time between Canada and various warmer locations in the U. S. Oh, and as a little bonus, she tells us what was most difficult about writing this book, and wasn’t at all what I thought she’d say.

Catherine Mack: Honestly just realizing that one as I talk to you,

David Gwyn: Let’s get into the interview.

Catherine, thanks so much for being here.

Catherine Mack: Thanks for having me back.

David Gwyn: Yeah, I’m really excited to chat with you. We’ve talked a couple times before about thrillers and now we get to talk about mystery, which is so much fun.

I’m really, really looking forward to it.

Catherine Mack: Thriller adjacent. Yes,

David Gwyn: thriller adjacent. Exactly. Exactly. Very much in, the same vibe as a thriller for sure. So your novel, Every Time I Go on Vacation, Someone Dies is out now, everyone, people [00:03:00] are hearing this. How does it feel?

Catherine Mack: I’m super excited.

It’s weird because it’s like, I don’t know, my 18th novel or something, so you know, it’s not quite the same as like when my first book came out, but at the same time, it’s under a slightly different name and it’s a new genre and it does feel like a fresh start, so I am kind of feeling some of those things.

Exciting things again and in a weird parallel. I so when I found out about my first book deal, I was home alone. In this house that I live in now. And I tried to get, like, my husband on the phone. And then all my friends on the phone. Because it was before texting. And I couldn’t get anyone on the phone.

And I had actually written a scene like that. In a book, where a writer, like, and then it happened, and then on Sunday, my like, on last Sunday, my book was reviewed in the New York Times, and we knew it was a possibility, but they don’t tell you when, and it was the weekend, so I actually found out, because another author wrote to me and sent me just the photo of it saying, congratulations.

And [00:04:00] right. But I was like, okay, she wouldn’t do this if it was bad. Right. So like, I’m going to open it. It’s going to be good. And it was good. And so then I tried to call my husband because he was out of town and I couldn’t get him on the phone. And I feel like this is happening. But I was able to text people this time.

So, I was able to get in touch with people and then he called me like half an hour later. So, yeah.

David Gwyn: That’s awesome. Yeah. Congratulations. I didn’t get to read the, the review yet, but I will. And I imagine well deserved praise for sure. So can you just talk a little bit about what the story’s about?

Catherine Mack: Sure. So it’s about a woman named Eleanor Dash, who is a bestselling mystery writer. She has this. It’s a series that started with a book called When in Rome ten years earlier and was a runaway success. But it is based on an adventure that she had with this guy, Connor Smith in Italy ten years ago. And she changed all the other names in the book, but not his.

And so she’s kind of stuck with this guy and she’s been sent on a 10th anniversary book tour with [00:05:00] him and another ex boyfriend and a whole bunch of other people. So. So. And she’s plotting to kill him in her book series because she’s just had enough of this guy. And then he comes up to her and says that someone’s trying to kill him and he needs her help.

David Gwyn: So where did this idea come from? Because I, I, you know, we, we’ve talked before about thrillers and, and I’m, I’m curious if this is kind of the, comes about the same way or if this was like slightly different because it’s, That’s slightly different from what you’ve been doing.

Catherine Mack: Yeah. I mean, I, I think it came together in sort of like three pieces, which some of my books had before.

The first piece was that I was trying to move away from the dark thrillers. I’ve written some rom coms under another name and I had a lot of fun writing those and I started out my career writing lighter, funner, funny material. And so I’ve been talking to my agent about trying to write a book.

What I was calling rom thrillers, which were like half rom com, half thriller, funnier, lighter. And I kicked around this idea that wasn’t totally jelling for various reasons. And [00:06:00] then I was on a 10 day tour in Italy with my husband and we were just like talking or I was talking and I started talking about Agatha Christie and Miss Marple, and I was like, why would anyone invite Miss Marple anywhere?

Like, every time she goes on vacation, someone dies. And then I was like, oh, wait a second. That’s a good, that is a good title, you know? And and then once I had that title, I was like, okay, well, like, what story is going to fit in that? And several years before, and for a very long time, I’ve had this idea of someone who had this long running career.

mystery series that was based on a real person like, imagine Louise Penny, but her detective is actually a real person. He drives her nuts. And I had actually pitched it. It was called the green room at the time, and I had pitched it to a previous editor, somebody at a big book conference who is sick of their protagonist.

And then he turns up dead in the green room and she’s a suspect, but there’s a hundred other mystery [00:07:00] writers there and everyone’s trying to solve this thing. And so I’d, I’d had that idea. I’d pitched it. My editor preferred something else that I pitched to her. Can’t even remember what book that was now.

Like, please join us maybe, I think. And but I’m not even sure to be honest. And and so I was like, Oh wait, I can marry these two things together. And when I, once I, once I had that idea, it all started coming to me pretty quickly, I would say and actually had still have the note from August 8th, 2023 on the notes app or 2022.

Sorry. It’s in the notes app on my phone where I like had some basic stuff, feverishly started filling

David Gwyn: things in

Catherine Mack: her name and her name, which remained and, and a couple of character names and. Ideas, the description of Connor that he’s like Captain America with a smirk is in there. There’s a joke about Carbonara and Carabinieri, which are the police in Italy, that’s there.

Anyway, so like random little pieces are, are in that note. Yeah, and I started writing it in [00:08:00] the fall, you know, a month after I got home from Italy. I had to finish whatever else I was writing and then I launched into it. So that’s

David Gwyn: cool. And so I’m curious because we’ve talked before about how you structure your days.

You, last time we talked, you typically had like your thriller mornings. comedy afternoons. And I’m curious where this story fits because it does feel like a blend of the two. And I’m wondering, was it morning? Was it afternoon? Or did the middle of your days get very busy?

Catherine Mack: Morning writing? I’m like Taylor with my, is it a glitter pen?

Or an ink pen? Or Torchabot’s Fireman’s an amazing album, by the way, just in passing. So for all the haters out there, It’s more complex than a rom com because it’s still a mystery. Somebody dies, there’s a plot, there’s like, moving pieces. So yes, it’s still my morning writing piece, for sure. And I do have another rom com coming out.

A week later, because somehow in the whole polishing schedule, I have two books coming out in the same week [00:09:00] and it’s so funny, right? And so I did, I was still writing revising that book as well. So I was probably doing that in the afternoon. I actually feel like it, it, everything kind of, it was always in sequence.

So it’s like, I would, I would finish like a draft and then I would get editorial on the other book and then I would finish a draft of that and then I would get it back and it would go to copy edit. And so I think it was more that I was kind of like doing one project after another and they were in this constant cycle.

David Gwyn: Yeah.

Catherine Mack: One after another. Yeah.

David Gwyn: Wow. And so I’m, I’m actually curious and I don’t know if this is normal in terms of what you’re, what you’re doing, but how, how do you sync these things up? Cause I’m assuming you’re working with two different editors, obviously for the two, for the two, for the thriller mystery.

And then for the, the rom com. So how are you, are you ever getting things back at the same time with a deadline? You’re like, Oh,

Catherine Mack: I mean, yes, yes, that’s happened. But I would say like, luckily, you usually have good amounts of time to, [00:10:00] to get stuff back. It’s never an emergency. I’m, I’m like a very on time person and the value of being on time and not last minute with stuff is I do have room, you know?

So like so, but definitely, I definitely would either literally turn something in and get the other thing back on the same day or, Sometimes there was overlap, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. Cause once they know what a publication date is and that my rom com originally actually was supposed to be published in April and it got moved.

Once, once a date’s the same, basically like the publishing behind the scenes schedule is going to be the same, like it’s just a given,

David Gwyn: there are some moments where Oh, I’m going to be busy for a

Catherine Mack: But then there’s random weird gaps where I had nothing to do because, I’d be waiting in both projects for people to get back to me,

David Gwyn: Okay, so let’s pause there for a second. So far we heard about how Catherine developed the premise for this novel, and how it kind of modified and changed over time, And how she kind of Had a few [00:11:00] ideas merging together. In the next part of the interview, I ask her how she decided to turn this premise into a book with sequels, and how she developed the right tone and voice in the story. You’re going to learn so much from hearing her answers.

But before we get to the next part of the interview, do you want to write for Thriller 101? Whether you have a book to promote, or you’re just working on building your author platform, consider writing an article for Thriller 101 to reach a broader audience, improve your author platform, Or, just have something to add to your bio.

This can be great if you’re querying, too. The typical audience for Thriller 101 is writers hoping to publish their novel, usually through the traditional route, though this audience loves a good comparison when it comes to the different publishing paths. We also really enjoy reading and thinking about craft, author’s platform, querying, agents, etc.

Articles that are chosen will be published on the Thriller 101 website, promoted through our email list of over 400 writers, and mentioned on the Thriller 101 podcast. The article can include links to your website, your book, social media, and or anywhere else you [00:12:00] really want to send potential readers. If you’re here to inform, educate, share, and help the Thriller101 community, then there’s a place for you.

You can find out more information in the link in the description for this episode, or you can go to thriller101. com slash write dash four dash thriller dash one oh one to find out more. Yeah, I really got to work on that URL.

Maybe it’s just easier if you use the link in the description. But in the meantime, let’s head back to the interview.

I know this is a gonna be a series, there’s gonna be upcoming sequels to, to this story, and I know you’ve done a lot of standalone thrillers, and so how, what was it about this project that felt different?

Catherine Mack: Well, I went in knowing that I wanted to pitch it as a series.

I’m not going to say it’s a regret about my career, but like, looking back, if there was something, you know, when you sort of analyze, like, okay, I’ve done well, and I’ve gotten to here, but I never got, like, Up here like why was that and and what does well and not to be Too critical too analytical about it.

Like I still write what I want to write [00:13:00] but There is definitely You know a continuing character Does have can attract a different level of audience than a lot of standalone books And so that was something that was in my head And so when I sat down to write it, I wanted to write it with that possibility And so I made choices while I was writing it that fit into that.

And one of them is, maybe I meant, we probably talked about this before, but I always used to know when a book was finished because I didn’t have any questions about these characters anymore. And I wasn’t interested in spending any more time with them. And so this time I knew that not only was going to have to stay with my main character, I was gonna have to stay with a bunch of these people.

At least over two or three, you know, three books is normally this kind of genre if you get a deal what the deal is. And so I had to make like character choices, I had to come up with some of that I wanted to spend more time with, and then I also had to leave unanswered questions in the book, which I I don’t [00:14:00] think they’re actually unanswered for the reader, but I know they’re unanswered cause I’m going to address them later.

And I’ve actually already written the second book now. So, and it started drafting the third. So so yeah, so, so it was just a slightly different approach to the book. And then another thing that I did is, I did immediately start writing the second book when the first one was finished because I wanted to keep that continuity of voice.

And, and, and even like going into the third and now the second book has gone to copy edit so I’ll get that book back and then I’ll immediately really write. The third book, because once you’ve got a voice and you’ve read the book, it’s a very voicey book, it’s a very, there’s some distinct aspects to it.

That, like, it’s my author voice, but on steroids, and so I do have to get to a certain place when I’m writing it. And. That’s, that can be hard. It’s like, okay, oh yeah, this is, this is [00:15:00] how she talks. You know, gotta, because people notice, I, as a reader, I notice when the author makes mistakes through a series or changes things, you know, whether the mistake’s a razor, sometimes it’s just an intentional choice.

I hope no one notices this, you know. So yeah, you know, it’s, it’s, there were definitely some choices that I made along the way that were different than my normal process.

David Gwyn: I do want to talk a little bit about the voice and how you got there because it is, it is such a unique voice. I think obviously, as you kind of touched on, but the first thing I want to point to is just the, That idea, and I’m a firm believer of this.

I talk about this a lot in the podcast of kind of marrying the creative and business side, like, like publishing is a business and you need to think of it like that while maintaining whatever creativity, you know, it gets you going and what gets you out of bed in the morning to write about. And so I think this is just a great example of, of somebody in your shoes basically saying, you know, I, I’m excited about this project.

But I know publishing is a business. How do I make [00:16:00] these two things mesh together? I think that’s a really smart way of thinking about it.

Catherine Mack: Also at the same time, I think, you know, something that I learned through this. And if I look back on my career, like the books for me that have been the most successful, like the book that got me my first book deal and the book that has sold the most copies.

The book that sold the second most copies that broke me out in Hollywood. Like, all of those books, I was really pushing myself, I was really trying something new. So, You know, I was doing things deliberately, but I was also swinging for the fences. And so I think it’s kind of like, you know, one of the things I used to be a litigator and one of the things in litigations that you had, like, if you knew the file backwards and forwards, that would leave you the place to be ready for the things you didn’t see coming.

And I think it’s kind of like that. In a way with this which is I had all these goals And then I gave myself the freedom to just go for it and all credit to my agent [00:17:00] also who was pushing me when I was in the the process of writing The first half of the book which we went out on proposal and in pushing me like more more lean into this more go more Do more we haven’t talked about the footnotes yet, but that was actually something that I added right at the end because I was like It needs to be voicier, and I’m really gonna break the fourth wall, and I’m, I’m just gonna lean into it.

And if I just swing for the fences and lean as hard into this as possible, like, no one can say, Well, you half assed that. You know, like, you didn’t, you didn’t go for it. And so, I knew, like, with the title, My agent said this too, but that title was like, okay, that title is gonna get me in the door.

That’s what comes behind the title has to match the audacity of that title, right? Because like, but you have something called Every Time I Go on Vacation Someone Dies and it’s not funny like no You’re like that doesn’t work right? So then you haven’t lived up to like the promise of the title And funny is hard.

Funny takes a lot of [00:18:00] work. Like, funny is not in the first draft. Like, first draft is like, here’s a placeholder joke, and I’ll do the better joke later. You know, so.

David Gwyn: Well, that’s where I want to go to next. And you kind of touched on it, which is the voice for this, for this story. And, and I know that it sounds like it’s something that you have to kind of work yourself up and work yourself into.

But what was that process like?

Catherine Mack: I mean I do and I don’t. I think it’s, it does feel, and all writing is work, but again coming back to the sort of touchstones with one exception, it’s like my books that have done the best are the ones that felt kind of effortless. writing them and that I had fun, like, and I, I feel like I just have to access a place of fun when I’m, when I’m writing this book and it is fun.

Like, it’s fun to play and it’s fun to know the rules of the, of a genre, like a body is supposed to drop, you know, here and then I play around with that, right? And without giving anything away, but so it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s knowing the boundaries [00:19:00] and pushing it and, and, and just, Being like, okay, what would Eleanor do in this situation?

Like, she would have the most inappropriate reaction to this. She would make this joke at this completely inappropriate time. She’d be like, conducting a romance in the middle of a murder investi you know, investigation. So, yeah. Yeah, it’s, I think it’s doing all that stuff, but then also keeping the sort of deeper moments, connection her sister’s on this tour, they have a complicated relationship her ex boyfriend that she’s still in love with is on this tour.

There’s stuff like that going on as well. So it really was just like trying to take all of the skills that I’ve learned since I started writing novels and almost 20 years ago and show up with that on the page.

David Gwyn: Yeah. What do you think when you look back on this process and obviously you’re kind of still in it a little bit, but what, what do you think was the biggest challenge writing something that was slightly different than what you’ve done kind of on both sides, really?

From like the dark filler and the, and the rom com.

Catherine Mack: It’s not [00:20:00] that I’ve never killed anyone in a book before, but I’ve never, like, people have died in my books, for sure. But, I don’t think they’ve totally died in the way they do in a cozy mystery. So, you know, it’s kind of like, reminding myself of those beats. And, and making sure it was a mystery and not a thriller.

Because that, you know, I made the joke up top, but like, that distinction can be kind of murky sometimes. And I’ve tried to explain the difference. I don’t know, know that I always get there. So I think it was, it was more that. I think my book, I’ll Never Tell without the tone is like the closest to this book in terms of my intention was to write an Agatha Christie murder mystery in that book. And that’s what I set out to do. But I think I use thriller techniques because , I didn’t use the framework of a mystery.

I used a thriller framework because there’s the night of 20 years before and then there’s the current chapters and so in this, one thing that’s different, I [00:21:00] have no backstory. Like, I do give information but in every one of my previous books, I’ll have sections that are backstory, and I use Scrivener to write, and those would actually be highlighted in a different color.

This, there is no backstory. You know, because I don’t think that that really exists in mystery books.

Honestly just realizing that one as I talk to you, so it was like just making sure I was really firmly in the mystery space. And, Knowing what that was. And I grew up reading Agatha Christie, and I’ve read many other mysteries over the years So I have fairly firm grasp on what that is, but it’s not ever something that I’d fully executed

David Gwyn: That’s cool, that’s so much fun.

So, as always this is this is so much fun to to last question here? Just where can people find you? Where can people look you up?

Catherine Mack: So the book is published under Catherine Mack, but I’m still Catherine Mackenzie, author on all my socials. Twitter is CE Mackenzie. One on TikTok.

I am Catherine Mackenzie. Four, I believe. Who are the other three? Catherine Mackenzie. Who are these ladies? I have not met

David Gwyn: them yet on.

Catherine Mack: I need to sort seek them out. You really do You [00:22:00] really

David Gwyn: do ?

And my website is Catherine.

Catherine Mack: Author dot com.

David Gwyn: Like I said, it’s so much fun talking to you. So knowledgeable. This is a great story. If you’re listening to this, you got to go check it out. I will link to some bunch of that stuff. So you have quick access to Catherine. So much fun, Catherine. Thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time to chat.

Catherine Mack: Thanks for having me back.

David Gwyn: Okay, so that’s it. If you liked this episode, I linked my other conversations with Catherine in the description, so be sure to check those out.

If you’re interested in writing for Thriller 101, don’t forget to check out the link in the description and Just a reminder, I write a weekly newsletter through Thriller 101 with exclusive information, advice, and updates you only get from the newsletter. I talk about goal setting, systems, productivity, and I share the best resources and advice for thriller writers from all around the internet.

If you want to level up your writing skills, be sure to subscribe. There’s a link in the description where you can do that.

Next time on the podcast, I’ll be talking to the talented Heather Levy about how to organically develop backstory. She was so much fun to talk to, so be sure to subscribe so you get notified when that episode is released, [00:23:00] and I’ll see you next week.