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🗓 Previously…

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🎙 Interview

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📇 Biography

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📜 Transcript

Carla Conti

Carla Conti: [00:00:00] It was maybe easier for me to write the journalism parts because that’s what I used to do. And then I had to really examine how was I feeling about this moment when this happened.

And then I have a lot of documentation about exactly how I felt about certain things, whether it was phone recordings or texts or emails. So I, just tried to go back and put it all together and make it as realistic as it was as I was experiencing it.

David Gwyn: Hey everyone. And welcome back to the thriller one-on-one podcast. Today. We have a guest who’s going to talk about true crime, but also about beams and how to commit to getting your project done. Even if it takes a years. I’m David Gwyn, a writer navigating the world of traditional publishing during the second season of the thriller one-on-one podcast.

We’re going to continue our focus on building the skills necessary to write the kind of thrillers that land you, an agent and readers. During the season, I’ll [00:01:00] be sharing some of my own insights while also talking to agents authors and other publishing professionals.

About the best way to write a novel, if you want the experts secrets, thriller 1 0 1 is where you’re going to find them. Today’s guest is Carlisle Conti Carla is a true crime journalist storyteller and prison reform advocate who previously covered the police beat and criminal courts as a newspaper reporter in the Midwest and Northeast.

In 2011, she was asked to write about federal inmate Kevin Sanders, who was incarcerated inside the brutal torturous conditions of Pennsylvania’s Lewisburg prison.

Carla then became part of the legal team that defended Kevin against unjust assault charges and remained his advocate and friend on the outside ever since. Because of her exclusive access to Kevin’s first person accounts.

She knows the stories that led to the 2018 shutdown of Lewisburg special management unit.

One of the bloodiest experimental prison programs in the country for a decade. Carla followed Kevin’s journey inside various federal prisons to write an expo. On the world of prison, abuse, corruption, and violent [00:02:00] prison gangs.

He experienced. However she became imperiled by association. After two separate prison, gangs tried to kill Kevin and learned that she was writing a tell all book about his case. Let’s get into the interview.

So Carla your book Chained Birds will be out by the time people hear this.

How do you think you’re gonna feel?

Carla Conti: Oh, I’m going to be glad that it’s out there in the world and hope that things settle down a wee bit Although maybe that still won’t happen for another week or two, but it’ll be good. I’m sure.

David Gwyn: Yeah I feel like you’ve been doing a lot of stuff. We’ve been in contact a little bit back and forth I feel like you have been all over the place with preparing to to launch this thing Like what has been what has been the most surprising part of launching a book?

Carla Conti: You know, I guess some of the curious buzz that’s happened around it and I don’t have sourcing for all of it, but some of it, I think I can trace back to NetGalley, you know, where advanced reader [00:03:00] copies go, and we had like a hundred to give away and we kind of did it a little earlier than some publishers.

we started it two months ahead of launch. And I think that started getting some awareness out there internationally, which is something I didn’t expect. We had some outreach from a UK TV production company. And just today I got an interview request from The Sun. In the UK. I mean, how does that even happen?

So that’s just some surprising weird stuff that I never expected.

David Gwyn: Yeah, that’s very cool. So let’s backtrack a little bit. Tell us what Chain Birds is about.

Carla Conti: Okay. Well, Chain Birds is a true crime memoir of my 10 year involvement with a federal inmate named Kevin Sanders. I recount my journey of how I came to be part of his legal defense in his criminal case, and how I remained his friend and [00:04:00] advocate on the outside.

He was an inside source for me to help chronicle some horrific abuses and corruption at an experimental prison program in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania, and he had first hand experience with some high profile prison gangs Two of which put out hit orders on him and is the reason why I wrote this under a pseudonym.

David Gwyn: Yeah. Yeah, it’s such an intense story. I’m curious, when was the moment that you were kind of going through this process that you thought to yourself, like, I think I have a story I can actually tell here.

Carla Conti: Yes, well I kind of started the book and dropped it numerous times over ten years. I mean, originally when I was brought into the case by Kevin’s attorney, who is my high school friend I assisted in the legal case, but then my attorney friend said, Oh, you should write this as a true crime story because he knew my [00:05:00] journalism background.

And I covered the police beat and things like that as a reporter. And so it sounded like a good idea and then things would happen and I would, there would be tentacles, you know, from maybe one of the prison gangs that would be aware that I was in theory writing this book and they were involved and I would get some outreach from a girlfriend or a wife of an Aryan Brotherhood gang member who would say, Hey, when’s your book coming out?

But. Hey, also, you better be careful what you write. So from that perspective, that was One of the times I decided to drop it, you know, things like this happened throughout the 10 years. And it just seemed like the right time. In early 2023, everything seemed to fall into place. The story had an ending. I was at a good place in my life.

My kids [00:06:00] were grown and out of the house.

David Gwyn: Yeah, I’m wondering you know, as a journalist, which you mentioned, you have a journalism background. I imagine you’re trying to navigate this story as objectively as possible, but obviously you have a connection to this case. How were you able to kind of, like, handle the, like, emotional part with the objective part, which I think you did so well in the story?

Carla Conti: Well, some people might say I didn’t handle the emotional part very well. If you read the book, you notice that I cry a lot

David Gwyn: because Well, I think it’s a, it’s emotional, but you don’t, I feels like you don’t it, I don’t know. It felt to me like you don’t overstep. Like it felt like a true crime memoir.

Like, you know, you’re getting something there, but you have the journalism background. So it felt very objective at the same time. Like it felt like you balanced those two.

Carla Conti: Well, I’m glad to hear you think so. It was maybe easier for me to write the journalism parts because that’s what I used to do. And then I had to really examine how was I feeling about this [00:07:00] moment when this happened.

And then I have a lot of documentation about exactly how I felt about certain things, whether it was phone recordings or texts or emails. So I, just tried to go back and put it all together and make it as realistic as it was as I was experiencing it.

David Gwyn: Yeah. I want to talk a little about that documentation.

Cause like the writing that you’re doing is so detailed and obviously happened years ago and happened over the course of many years. And so I am curious about how you, what was like the process? Was it a lot of you racking your, your brain or was it a lot of like, like court details? Was it a lot of your own notes or was it a little bit of mix of everything?

Carla Conti: I have a giant database and when I say giant, I mean humongous. and I’m a hoarder of notes and material and details. And this database I’ve had [00:08:00] not for the whole 10 years because I don’t think I even found the program until a few years into it. But I have all the transcripts from the various hearings and trial.

I started recording my phone calls Pretty early on, as soon as I was able to get phone calls from this inmate, Kevin Sanders, I started recording his calls, and then I would use a transcription service, and then I just started automatically recording all of my phone calls, which wasn’t necessarily a good or legal thing, but it was very helpful for this story.

And it just, it all went into this database and I could never have come up with the dialogue and the chronology and all of the components that went into making it true without that database.

David Gwyn: Yeah, it’s very cool.

Okay. Let’s pause there for a second. So far in the interview, Carla has talked about her book and how she used extensive research to write it in the next part of the interview.

I want you to [00:09:00] listen to some of the strategies she used to get her work done and out into the world. And sure. It’s important to let a project ruminate.

But even as writers who really want to write, sometimes the hardest part is deciding when a project is done. You have to know when it’s time to put it out there. But it can be really difficult to know when it’s time to go. Even from one part of the process to the next, like from research or plotting to writing. Or from writing to querying and submitting your work. But there’s a few strategies, Carla shares to help us move into the next phase of our writing journey. You’ll see what I mean

It sounds like you kind of picked a time in your life when things were calmed down a little bit, but you know, when you were talking about how you kind of picked up this, this book and put it back down for varying reasons, some, some more like the the scary reasons than most novelists do, or most writers do, but I am curious about how you navigated the writing time here with like your personal life and, and thinking about how were you able to take on this?

I mean, it’s a massive project, a massive undertaking that I know obviously took, took [00:10:00] a while, but it sounds like it really came together pretty quickly once you, you know, decided to, to go for it in 2023. Can you talk a little bit about, like, how you went about navigating just the writing part with all the personal aspects of your life?

Carla Conti: Sure. Well, I decided to write it for sure, for good, in early 2023. And I put together an outline and I’ve always known what the outline is because I know what the story is. It goes from A to Z, right? And it did finally have an ending that became apparent to me in early 2023. So I put it together in an outline and I gave myself a deadline of a writing conference.

which was in August of 2023. So I, I put a proposal together, which had the outline and some sample chapters and marketing material and things like that. And I went with my trustee [00:11:00] proposal to a writing conference and got some interest, got a little validation, did not get any offers of rep, but I needed that deadline to get it going.

And I was intent on self publishing. because I just assumed that would be the easiest way to get it out there in the world and read a ton about how to self publish. And actually, a lot of the marketing I’ve been doing is thanks to the self publishing community. And on a whim, in December, I reached out to two small presses that had a true crime niche, and Wild Blue Press reached out right away.

And they liked what I had and I signed a contract with them. And then we came up with a deadline for the following June of this year. So I had to write it pretty quickly, but it was [00:12:00] outlined. So, you know, that helped. And I think having a journalism background allowed me to write it quickly because I was a fast writer.

So I, I, had my trusty database and pulled everything in and I left a lot of scrap on the floor too. I probably wrote enough for almost two books and, you know, there’s just a lot to take out when you have to kill those darlings that don’t move the story forward. And yeah, I’ve finished the draft.

in May and while Blue Press’s editor was terrific and helped shape it up. And I think we have a good finished product.

David Gwyn: Yeah. Nice. So that came together pretty quickly then when, when it was all said and done, I mean a long waiting time. And then all of a sudden it sounds like for 10

Carla Conti: years and then you write it in a few months.

I’m like,

David Gwyn: yeah. I do want to, the, the last thing I kind of want to ask you here is around like the thematic part of this story. Cause I think there’s, there’s something really interesting. I think true crime. is [00:13:00] becoming like a little bit more aware of itself in recent years and like what is the purpose of true crime?

How, how does it serve the, the people that are, that are in the story? And I think, that this book really does a nice job of, of serving the people in the story and talking about, you know, just the criminal justice system in general.

Do you wanna talk a little bit about that and then, and then was that thematic arch always there or did that come out as you were writing the story?

Carla Conti: Well, I always knew it would be an expose on the things that happened in Lewisburg. Yeah. And in a way it’s an expose on things that happen generally in federal prison because I followed this inmate through.

other institutions where a lot of the same things happened. Then, as far as the criminal justice system, as I was recounting the hearings and the trial and everything that occurred, I realized this is an expose of that system also, where indigent people who can’t [00:14:00] afford good private attorneys, they get the short end of the stick all the time.

And those people don’t have the same voice that everybody else has. People in prison don’t have a voice. People on the outside don’t want to know what goes on inside of prison. And I I’m very happy to shine a light on some of those things and give that information to people. And honestly, unless you’re entertained, you don’t even want to know the information, you know, it’s got to be infotainment.

But then maybe people walk away knowing a little bit more about both what goes on, you know, behind the bars of federal prison and in the criminal justice system that people don’t talk about.

David Gwyn: Yeah. What a great place for us to end here. So my last question for you is just where can people find you?

Where can people look you up?

Carla Conti: Yes, I am at Carla Jean Conti everywhere. [00:15:00] My blog, all my socials, it’s the same handle.

David Gwyn: And so I’ll link to that so people have quick access and, and I guess I can kind of be the first person to say congratulations. Your book is, your book is out. So congrats and thanks so much for being here.

Really, really fun to chat with you.

Carla Conti: Oh, it’s my pleasure. This was so much fun. Thanks.

David Gwyn: Okay. That’s it. So make sure you’re setting deadlines for yourself and commit to moving into the next part of your journey. Even if you have a project that can take a long time to come together. Things can happen quickly when you put the work in. Next time on the podcast.

We’re going to hear from Aaron, Phillip Clark,

he’s going to share about what it was like partnering and writing with a celebrity.

Developing themes. And writing a story that you can be proud of. I’ll see you next week.