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🗓 Last Time

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🎙 Interview

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📇 Biography

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📜 Transcript

Ash Clifton

Ash Clifton

Ash Clifton: [00:00:00] The real trick is to, to like what you’re doing. If you’re not liking what you’re writing, probably nobody else is either. So, I mean, you gotta keep writing until you find something, a, a character or a subject at least. That that, you kind of have fun writing about you know, you hear everywhere about how hard writing is and how it’s, you know, you’ve got to have discipline.

You’ve got to sit down every day and do it. Well, yes, that’s true. But if you don’t like it, if you don’t take joy in it, there won’t be any joy. In the character

David Gwyn: how much backstory is too much backstory? Can there be any backstory at all in your opening chapter? I mean, your characters have to have something going on before the start of the book, right? But what does that really look like? Today’s guest is going to help us with all that and so much more. I’m David Gwynn, an agented writer navigating the world of traditional publishing.

During this first season of the Thriller 101 podcast, we are going to focus on building the skills necessary to write the kinds of thrillers, suspense, and mystery novels that land you an agent and readers. I’m talking to agents, authors, and other [00:01:00] industry professionals about the best way to write a novel.

If you want the expert secrets, this is where you’re going to find them. Last week on the podcast, I shared an interview with best selling author, Lisa Unger.

Lisa Unger: As a reader and as a writer, you know, that’s my main focus. Like all plot flows from character for me.

Like there’s no plot and then the characters get fit in to the plot. Like that’s just not the way it works. Like I hear a character voice and that character. This chapter reveals him or herself to me on the page as I write.

David Gwyn: She gave some valuable advice on character and how she writes her books. Plus she revealed where she stands on the pantser versus plotter debate. That interview is linked in the description. So go check it out after you listen to my guest today. Today’s guest is Ash Clifton. He was raised in Gainesville, Florida, where he attended the university and got a BA in English.

He then earned an MFA in creative writing from the University of Arizona. His short fiction has appeared in the [00:02:00] Missouri Review, the Massachusetts Review, Cutthroat, a Journal of the Arts, and Step Away Magazine. His debut novel, Twice the Trouble, is out now, a masterclass in dripping backstory in a way that feels natural

ash, thanks so much for being here on Thriller 101. I’m really excited to chat with you. Thanks for having me. Yeah, so, your novel, Twice the Trouble, is out now. It’s not out now since we’re talking, but it’s out now when people are hearing this. So, how does it feel?

Ash Clifton: Well, it’s still a little unreal.

You know, I, I’ve been trying to write books for a long time, like, like many people. And, you know, somehow the stars aligned and I think it’s, I’m hoping it does well. I’m hoping people like it.

David Gwyn: Yeah, well, it’s a great book. I’m really excited for people to read it. Can you tell us what TWICE THE TROUBLE is about?

Ash Clifton: Well, it’s about a private detective in Orlando, Florida, which is a setting that I know somewhat intimately, but isn’t very common. In the genre, at least not that I’ve seen there’s there’s lots of [00:03:00] mystery fiction set in Florida. But for some reason, Orlando, that’s kind of a wrap that you wouldn’t associate with noir mystery.

But that’s where I said it. He’s a he’s in his thirties. He’s a former elite athlete. He was a star. Safety for the Florida Gators. Yes, that’s my alma mater. I was not a football player. But he is. You know, he’s, he’s very strong, and he’s very smart, and he becomes entangled in a very dark mystery involving an embezzler and a construction firm.

David Gwyn: It’s such a great story and so funny and we’ll talk a little bit about this when we get into character. It, it felt so rich and I think because it has, it has that like mystery element and because he was such a great character. So I really highly suggest people pick it up. Even for the, the, just the central Florida vibes alone, I guess, right?

Ash Clifton: Yes, thanks. Thanks.

David Gwyn: So yeah, how did you come up with the idea for this story?

Ash Clifton: Well I mean, I’ve, I’ve consumed a lot of mystery fiction in my time.

I was actually trained as a [00:04:00] quote unquote, literary fiction writer. I went to school, I got an MFA. I, I read a lot of literary fiction. I wrote a couple of literary fiction novels and the, the two novels I wrote, you know, in my youth they were, sat here in Gainesville, my hometown, and I worked on them very hard for a long, long time.

And I, I sent them out and I sent them out to agents and I kept getting letters that said, you know, this is a well written book. We, we like the writing. We we just don’t like the main character that much. And and I thought, well, that’s, that’s great. Because the main character is essentially me. So I thought, well, you know, okay.

If you don’t like me, I’ll, I’ll write about someone totally different from me, you know. I’m bookish and introverted and very peaceful, non aggressive. I’ll write about somebody who’s very strong, isn’t afraid to hit people or to get hit and is involved in some pretty nasty [00:05:00] stuff. So and I had a lot of fun writing it, to my own surprise.

I don’t know why that would surprise me. I’ve enjoyed a lot of mystery fiction. But so yeah, that’s that’s kind of, I wrote it kind of as an experiment, but also I, you know, I started thinking about some of the people I’ve met here in town. I have actually met a couple of former Florida Gators, and and there’s kind of a neat you know, that they’re very different from the kind of people I usually meet in my adult, you know, professional and social life.

They’re very comfortable with themselves physically. You know, they can do things that other people cannot do. So that became, that interested me as, you know, and also a little bit of, you know, the Jack Reacher thing. I think I’ve heard Lee Child say that he wanted to create a character that was like, you know, just physically very.

dangerous and imposing and I did too. I didn’t want to make him a mountain like Jack Reacher, but I wanted him to be strong and have some physical abilities that most people don’t have.

David Gwyn: [00:06:00] Yeah, that’s super cool. That’s really interesting. So Let’s backtrack a little bit. So it sounds like you’ve always kind of wanted to be a writer.

Did you know even like growing up, was that something that you were interested in?

Ash Clifton: Yeah, I wrote a lot. I entered a lot of contests when I was in high school and, and I, I was very lucky. I, I made friends with I met a writing professor and an English professor here in town when I was very young, and he, and then I took classes with him later on in college, so and he helped me out, and he read my stuff, and, and then I took creative writing classes.

Classes here at Florida with Harry Cruz. I don’t know if you know who he is, but no, I’m not familiar. Yeah, he’s, he’s, he’s a great he was kind of a legend and he’s, he’s actually having a bit of a comeback. The, the Atlantic wrote a very flattering piece about one of his books a couple of years ago.

Oh, wow. Cool. Yeah, but he was a great teacher.

David Gwyn: I’m really curious, because I was planning on asking you this, but now we could, now that I know a little bit more about your background, I’m curious, what are you reading now, or what’s something that you’ve enjoyed recently?

Ash Clifton: Well right [00:07:00] now I’m, I’m actually reading a, a book by someone I know, Alex Kenna, she, she wrote a very good mystery novel called What Meets the Eye, and I’m enjoying that a lot, it’s very innovative and very smart and very well described.

But I mean, I, I still primarily read, you know, literary novels, I guess. I just finished Joyce Carol Oates Night, Sleep, Death, The Stars, which is 800 pages long. Wow. Yeah, so but it is a masterpiece and she’s, I think she’s our greatest living writer. So so yeah, I enjoy that a lot.

David Gwyn: Yeah, it’s so cool.

It’s so, it’s so funny to hear you say that because, like, running through my head, I’m like, Where did I pick up on the literary writing in, Twice the Trouble? Like, did you find you had to edit yourself because you were writing too literary? Or did you just kind of jump right into the genre and really hit the ground running?

Ash Clifton: You know, I, I, I very deliberately decided to try to write a mystery the same exact way I’d write a literary novel. You know, [00:08:00] it, it starts with the character and, and getting deep inside. Their point of view deep inside their consciousness on if you, if you are imagining it properly, you know, if you are that person while you’re writing you know, the, the, the quote unquote literary part just kind of comes out.

You know, you get back story naturally and you get their sensibility and what they like and don’t like,

you

Ash Clifton: know, and there’s no reason you can’t do that in a mystery novel.

David Gwyn: Yeah, it’s cool. So I do. I’m Like chomping at the bit here to ask you questions about about the the book and about the character But before we do that, I’d like to ask authors to give their agents a shout out So you’re repped by Cindy Bullard of Birch literary.

What is it that you like so much about working with Cindy?

Ash Clifton: Well, I made a very good personal connection with Cindy as soon as we first spoke. She’s very smart. She has a lot of experience and she’s also very you know, she’s very kind. I, I was a little freaked out when I got the call. She was very [00:09:00] nice to me.

And you know, she, she answered all my questions and and she seemed to have vast knowledge about, you know, The industry. And I looked at her, I had looked at her client list, and obviously I li I was impressed by some of the people she was publishing. I’m sure you are too. . That’s right. . But but yeah, and you know, she yeah.

And she’s funny. That was, that was a big thing for me. Yeah, I, I, I wanted somebody with a sense of humor, so he was also very smart.

David Gwyn: okay, let’s pause there for a second. Ash talked about his writing process, his long road to publication, and gave some insights into the publishing world. But in the next part of the interview, he’s going to share how he thinks about developing characters over the course of a novel. How to develop character voice.

Transitioning from an idea about your characters to what that actually looks like and how it’s delivered on the page. And even how to weave in backstory, there’s a lot still to come. But before we get to it, I wanted to remind you that I write a weekly newsletter through Thriller 101 with exclusive information, advice, and updates [00:10:00] you only get from the newsletter.

I talk about goal setting, systems, productivity, and I share the best resources and advice for thriller writers from all around the internet. Thanks If you want to level up your writing skills, be sure to subscribe. There’s a link in the description where you can do that.

I’m really curious about this about how you built this character Nolan twice. So, I love the way he was developed over the course of the story, when you’re taking that idea of, you know, you want somebody who’s physically strong and you want somebody who’s not afraid. Like, how do you get from there to translating that onto the page?

Ash Clifton: Well, you know, I, I I hate the word pantser, but I am a pantser. You know, I am one of those people who has no clue what’s going to happen.

And Except in the very vaguest sense about where this forget about where the book is going. I don’t know where this chapter is going on. And in keeping with that, you know, as I said, I did want to write about somebody with those attributes as physical attributes, but I really didn’t know anything more about that, except that he was going to be a football player.

And [00:11:00] then, you know, as I was writing, I discovered that he had been injured. His career had been ended very suddenly and violently with a, by an over aggressive tackle. By somebody who ends up being his best friend later on. And, and, you know, it, it got me thinking about, you know, the, you know, the, the culture of violence that football in America kind of represents.

And I, I discovered as I was writing him that he doesn’t watch football. He doesn’t enjoy watching football anymore. He avoids it. But he misses sports and, you know, and from that, you know, I learned that he had been, that his dad was a cop and that he had been a cop. And It is kind of a natural transition for athletes to go into some kind of physical labor, you know, physical job, like being a police officer.

So,

David Gwyn: yeah, it’s interesting. And what can you talk a little bit about his, his voice? So was that something that came to you? Like, once you had all these things, was writing his voice really easy? Or is that something that happened over a couple drafts?

Ash Clifton: That’s, that’s a really good [00:12:00] question. I mean, I hate to say that he talks a lot like me, but he does.

I mean but I, I’ve hung out with so many, like I said, I’ve hung out with some athletes, I’ve hung out with some cops and, and you know, bro culture is, is a thing, you know, and they have their own way of speaking and, and but, you know, I wanted him to be smart too. I wanted him to have gone to college, you know, he finished his degree.

So yeah, that, that just kind of came out, you know, naturally, I guess, just from the way my friends and, you know, I’m not, I’m not as young as he is. And but fortunately I’ve, I’ve had a lot of jobs where I worked with a lot of young people. So I sort of know, I sort of keep up not super well, but I sort of keep up with, you know, what kids today are doing, you know, the, the cool kids how they’re, how they’re lingo, as it were.

So so yeah, but thanks. Thanks for saying.

David Gwyn: Yeah, that’s good stuff. So the, the backstory I thought was so interesting because I think it was kind of like perfectly weaved in, you know, you didn’t overload at the beginning, it was really kind of dropped in over the course of the novel. Is that [00:13:00] something that you just like happened naturally as you’re writing?

Because it sounds like you’re kind of writing, writing by the seat of your pants here. Is that something that you had to like drop in naturally? Or is that something that you really like later on had to go through and decide where everything kind of fit in?

Ash Clifton: Well for me, that’s kind of the, it, it does kind of drop in naturally once you learn the craft of being inside somebody’s head.

And, , I read a lot of, novice fiction writers, fiction, you know, I I in a writing group. And, and one of the, one of the qualities of novice fiction is. Is that, you know, the exposition just kind of thrown at you, you know, it’s almost like a cue card thrown at your face, you know, like, you know, this guy was divorced seven years ago and, you know, and ever since then, he’s been miserable, that’s not how a guy thinks about his own past, you know, he, he might see somebody who looks like his ex wife, you know, across the street for a second, he thinks it is his ex wife and he’s, his heart stops for a second because he’s still in love with his ex wife and that’s how you tell the reader, Oh, he has an ex wife, you know, that woman looks [00:14:00] like, you know, Heidi or whatever, you know, and I, you know, I wish she hadn’t left me, you know, with two kids and the farm.

David Gwyn: It’s great advice for people who are listening and a lot of people who are listening to this podcast are, you know, thriller, mystery, suspense writers and kind of want to be where you’re at. So and a lot of writers, if you’re listening to this, definitely check out TWICE THE TROUBLE, the, the character, the backstory.

I mean, it’s all, I mean, you’re, you’re listening to Ash talk about it, like it’s a masterclass and how to pull it off. So. For people who are listening who, who kind of want to be where you’re at, any last advice on, on how to develop a, a great character like Nolan twice?

Ash Clifton: The real trick is to, to like what you’re doing. If you’re not liking what you’re writing, probably nobody else is either. So, I mean, you gotta keep writing until you find something, a, a character or a subject at least. That that, you kind of have fun writing about you know, you hear everywhere about how hard writing is and how it’s, you know, you’ve got to have discipline.

You’ve got to sit down every day and do it. Well, yes, that’s true. But if you don’t like it, if you don’t take joy in it, there won’t be any joy. In the [00:15:00] character that you’re trying to render, and I don’t care if you’re rendering a monster, you know, if you’re writing about, you know you know, the talented Mr Ripley.

I mean, there’s gonna be a sense of enjoyment in their sense of the love of of what you’re describing. And the more you like it, the more you’ll you’ll imagine it properly and see it in your own head. And anyway, that’s what works for me.

David Gwyn: Yeah, it’s awesome. So my last question for you is just where can people find you?

Where can people look you up?

Ash Clifton: Well I’ve, I’ve got a website ashcliftonwriter. com. I used to have a different website, but I, I morphed it into that. And I’m, I’ve still get like 10 times as many hits on my old site as that one, but please go to that one. And you know, and the book is up on Amazon and Barnes and Noble and, you know, all the usual suspects.

David Gwyn: If you’re listening and you want to get in touch with, with Ash, I’ll link to, to his website there. And, and you’ll have quick access to him and his books.

Like I said, definitely, definitely pick this one up. This one was a very fun read. So Ash, it has been an absolute pleasure. I have thoroughly enjoyed talking to you. Thanks so much for making the time to chat. Well, [00:16:00] thank you, David. I really appreciate it.

Okay, so that’s it. I found it really insightful how Ash thinks about developing character and backstory in a way that is natural for your reader.

Now’s the time for you to go through your opening chapter and think about the way you introduce your character to your readers. Are you doing it in an authentic way that readers will enjoy? Are there places where you need to scale back the backstory or bump up the voice a little bit

next time on the podcast? I’ll be talking to Mel Madison about his debut novel. He has such an interesting backstory. If you haven’t already subscribed to the podcast, be sure to do that. So you don’t miss that episode. And while you’re at it, remember to sign up for the thriller one on one newsletter for writing and publishing advice, and I’ll see you next week.