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🗓 Last Time

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🎙 Interview

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📇 Biography

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📜 Transcript

T000 – Sandy Lu

T000 – Sandy Lu

Sandy Lu: [00:00:00] some authors are just so plot driven, they forget about the human element, you can just substitute characters, you know, but why would we care about these particular characters? That has to be clear. Because everything, you know, all genre of fiction is a trope, right? I mean, so why should we care about one book versus the other?

It was a similar plot.

David Gwyn: If you’re hoping to sign with an agent this year, you’re going to love the episode today. We are going to dive headfirst into a fantastic submission to the Thriller 101 podcast, and my guest is going to share so many tips that you’re going to want to pay close attention to this one. If your goal is to land a literary agent as soon as possible, then this will be one of the most valuable things you do for your writing career this week.

I’m David Gwyn, an agented writer navigating the world of traditional publishing. During the first season of the Thriller 101 podcast, we are going to focus on building the skills necessary to write the kinds of thrillers, suspense, and mystery novels that land you an agent and readers. I’m going to be talking to authors, agents, [00:01:00] and other industry professionals about the best way to write a novel. If you want the expert secrets, this is where you’re going to find them. Last week I talked to Vera Kurian about her amazing new novel, A Step Past Darkness.

Vera Kurian: There are certain themes I keep returning to. One is friendship, which is clearly, this is the book all about friendship. But I’m always a character driven novelist. So character forward and there’s usually some kind of like big ish premise, like, you know, high concept sort of thing. But there is a sort of sensibility of me across all of them, even if they’re slightly different genres.

David Gwyn: That episode is linked in the description if you want to check that out.

Today’s guest is literary agent Sandy Lu. Sandy founded Book Wyrm Literary Agency in 2020 after working as a literary agent for more than a decade at other boutique agencies. Her client list includes Amazon, Barnes Noble, Publishers Weekly, USA Today, and the New York Times Best Sellers, Anthony Award, Hammett Prize, and Stoker Award nominees, Goodreads Choice Awards finalists, [00:02:00] and New York Times Best of the Year recipient.

She clearly knows her stuff, so let’s get to the interview.

David Gwyn: Sandy, thanks so much for being a part of this pitch series. I am really excited to chat with you.

Sandy Lu: Me too. Thank you for having me.

David Gwyn: Yeah. So let’s start with a big question here, which is why did you decide to become an agent?

Sandy Lu: Well, I always love to read books, you know, I mean, that’s, that’s like when I was like A little kid and all the other girls wanted dolls and, and pretty clothes.

I wanted books. So that’s all I ever asked for on my birthday by the time I was in the fifth grade, I already read all of the I don’t know what do you know about the, the series on Netflix called Lupin. Oh, I’ve heard of it. Yeah. It’s actually based on the classic series, Arsene Lupin and, and he’s like French Francis response to.

Sherlock Holmes. Because, yes, because Charlotte Holmes is a detective in the French, so French hero is the, the gentleman thief and his, his nemesis is the, [00:03:00] is called, is a detective named Herlock Sholmes. That’s

David Gwyn: amazing.

Sandy Lu: So, so that and Sherlock Holmes, I already, you know, read every, every book in those two series.

So my love for mystery and thriller is very deep. You know, go back way, way, way back. Yeah. Oh,

David Gwyn: that’s awesome. And so I know you, you had a pretty extensive background in agenting before starting your own agency. Can you talk a little bit about what, what that experience was like and then why you wanted to kind of go out on your own and create your own agency?

Sandy Lu: Well, yeah, I’ve been to I’ve been at different boutique agency. I started out at you know, Peter rubies and then I went to Al Perkins agency and then I left for a while went to another agency and then when I came back, what I realized is, you know, each agency has its own culture, right? It’s very idiosyncratic and everybody does things very differently.

And, and I mean, while I really value. my [00:04:00] experience. I feel like it was time because I want to be able to call the, you know, the shot myself and curate my own list. Because each agency has its own reputation, the kinds of book they do. Right. And, and I’m known for different things than my bosses were known for.

So, so that’s why, you know, of course I decided it was like, right. I, unbeknownst to me, it was like right before the pandemic started. Oh, wow. Yeah. But, you know, I’m very proud to say that, you know, it was a very amicable part, you know, parting of ways and my ex boss and I actually became better friends afterwards.

So,

David Gwyn: that’s great. Yeah, I feel like the literary community, it feels really big at first. And then once you start getting into it, you’re like, wait, everybody kind of knows everybody and talks and it’s really nice. About the industry in, in that way?

Sandy Lu: Yeah. It’s nice to be, you know, sometimes, sometimes you hear about things and you’re like, oh, I don’t wanna know that.

You know, why are you telling me that? ?

David Gwyn: I don’t need to know that. , maybe a little too much, too much information, huh? . Yeah, exactly. Cool. So, so tell me [00:05:00] a little bit about your authors. What’s next for, for the authors you have you know, either stuff coming out or stuff that’s just out now.

Sandy Lu: For thrillers only, I have an author named Heather Levy her second book called Hurt For Me is going to be released by Montlake, which is an imprint of Amazon Publishing in February, February 1st. This is what the book looks like. Hurt For Me by Heather Levy.

David Gwyn: It’s funny, I didn’t realize she was one of your authors. I’ve seen that book everywhere, it feels like. Oh, really? Yeah, it keeps popping up, I think people talking about it and it’s getting a lot of great press.

So that’s awesome, that’s really exciting.

Sandy Lu: Yeah, she’s been going to a lot of conferences, so, and she made a lot of friends in the mystery and thriller community. So she was nominated for an Anthony Award for the first novel last year for a different book. So, so she’s great. She’s a tremendous writer.

She’s Lou Bernie’s student when she was in college. Oh,

David Gwyn: that’s very exciting. That’s so cool.

Sandy Lu: Yes. And another one [00:06:00] is, is Home is Where the Bodies Are by Jeneva Rose. That’s coming out in April. I thought it was a very cool cover. So, she’s I don’t know if you know her, she’s the author of The Perfect Marriage.

David Gwyn: Yeah, she’s got some really great stuff and, am I right, does she have two books coming out this year?

Sandy Lu: She had three projects that came out last year, this year she’s gonna have three, too. Okay, wow. Yeah, she’s very, very busy, but she’s got great ideas, she writes fast, too, and you know, and she, she, she spends a lot of time promoting, you know, on social media, too, so I don’t know how she does it.

She, like, she’s an inspiration to me, like, she makes me want to be a better, better agent.

David Gwyn: That’s cool. That’s awesome. No, yeah, those are great, great titles. And for people who are listening I’ll like link to that stuff so you have quick access to those, to those two books. That’s very exciting. And so we have, we have actually a really fun submission to talk about today.

And it’s funny now that I’m thinking about the submission and thinking about the authors that you’ve just talked about. I’m like, Yeah. Thanks. Okay, I’m starting to see maybe a trend, maybe a through line for the stuff that you like to [00:07:00] do. But before we get into that, I just, I want to talk more generally.

Like, what are the genres you’re looking for

Sandy Lu: well, mystery and thriller is my first love and always my core genre, but I also love sci fi fantasy. And I love historical fiction and I love horror. Horror is making a comeback now, so I’m very excited about that. Yeah, and I also do some book club fiction, women’s fiction.

Some I would say YA young adult. Yeah. And also some nonfiction too.

David Gwyn: In the thriller mystery suspense space, what is something that you look for? for when you get a submission in those first couple of pages that makes you think like, okay, this is something I might request more pages of,

Sandy Lu: well, the writing of course, you know, like this particular query we’re going to talk about, you can tell that she puts a lot of thought every sentence, every, every phrasing, she put a lot of thoughts in it.

You could tell there’s a rhythm to it. That and also just a very particular [00:08:00] time and place. I mean, I think that’s what a lot of people don’t understand. You know, we read so many queries and to grab our attention. You don’t you don’t doesn’t mean that you have to shock us from from the very first paragraph.

Before we know anything about these characters, we don’t really care about what happened to them, right? So, you have to make us care about these characters and intrigue us. So give us a little bit of a clue of what’s going on and see if we’re hooked. Yeah, that’s the main thing.

David Gwyn: I think that’s so interesting and that’s one of the things that I wrote down about this submission is like, it feels like, and we’ll talk about it in just a second, we’re gonna get there, just the way that the summary, the paragraph and the pages fit together in a really unique way in a way that I don’t see done a lot, which we, we are going to talk about,

Sandy Lu: It’s just funny because I want to say something about this query because this author actually query me. And at the time, what happened, I can actually quite a few of the, of the authors on your list query me [00:09:00] already. And at the time it was back in September and I I usually pride myself get being really on top of my query.

So I, I respond within a few days, but what happened with query manager is because. Somehow the setup is not good doing it on my iPad. So I usually do it on my phone. And so, you know, like when I have a minute, when I’m waiting in line to call post office, I look at my career, things like that. And then, but like when you interrupt it, right.

I mean, and I go do whatever I had to do and then come back and load query manager. Again, it goes like, it goes away. It goes to the red pile. I figured, okay, whatever I read, right, it’s undecided. It was things that either I requested submission or whatever. So I would always go to the new one unread ones.

So this one just like fell through the cracks. as I was going through, I mean, I was catching up this past few days, I was catching up going through all of my unread one. And I saw this one. Oh my god.

David Gwyn: It’s meant to be. What are the [00:10:00] chances? I

Sandy Lu: know I meant to request this one at that time. It just fell through, but it wouldn’t have worked out.

It just worked out like last, basically I requested it last night. cool. The way I read my query manager is, is I don’t, I don’t necessarily read the letter anymore. First, I read the sample first. In the first, if the first two, three sentences intrigue me, then I go to the letter.

David Gwyn: What is it about that process? Is it just like you said, it just goes by faster? Is that the best benefit?

Sandy Lu: It goes by faster because also to me, no matter how well you write your letter, right? Some people can really pitch the hell out of their book, but you don’t, if you don’t have the actual manuscript, the actual writing to back it up, it’s a very different kind of writing.

Some people write marketing letters very well. I cannot tell you how many times I’m disappointed by a great query letter, and the writing is just, you know right away, it’s not living up to the hype. Right? So that’s why I changed my strategy. I used to read the query letter first, but [00:11:00] I find this way saves me so much more time.

And energy. That’s how I am able to be on top of my query. I try to get get it down to zero zero every every day. Every other day, you know, so

David Gwyn: well, you’re making a lot of writers happy because I think a lot of writers dread rightfully so the query letter because it is a different type of writing. And I feel like they don’t feel that they’re strong enough.

So if you got a submission that you really liked the written response, How bad does the query need to be that you’d still be like, I’m still going to give it a shot because the writing is really good. Does the query have to still also be very good? Or will you give a break on the query if the writing is really strong?

Sandy Lu: If the writing is really strong in the manuscript, I would give it a break. Because not, I mean, I can’t tell you how many people tell me, even my own client, they hate writing synopses. They hate writing.

David Gwyn: Yep. Yep. I’ve, I’ve echo that sentiment for sure.

If you want an agent to check out your submission, make sure you submit to the Thriller 101 podcast. There’s a link in the [00:12:00] description You can submit your pitch and first page and a half or so, and agents will check that out. And maybe sometime in the future, you’ll be listening to your full request on the podcast.

Carla: Cady has worked hard to have a good life. She has a thriving luxury party planning business. The husband she’s wanted since she was seventeen. Busy days and busier nights. More designer clothes than she can wear and more friends than she can keep up with. But when she gets a call that her twin sister has been in a serious accident and arrives at the hospital minutes too late to say goodbye, it all comes to a grinding halt. To her family’s growing concern and confusion, it’s not her sister’s death that consumes Cady. It’s Morgan, another grieving woman Cady encountered in the hospital waiting room the day her sister died. She can’t get Morgan out of her head. It can’t be a coincidence, them both experiencing tragedy at that same moment, in that same place; Cady doesn’t believe in [00:13:00] coincidences. Maybe if she sees the woman again, just once, she’ll be able to move on. But seeing Morgan again only intensifies Cady’s interest—or as her husband and her therapist see it, her fixation. With each blurred line she steps over, Cady inches closer to losing everything she’s worked so hard for, but she is convinced that she must somehow help this stranger overcome her own tragedy—whether the woman wants her help or not, and no matter what it costs her.

Emily (2): Chapter One

Carla: The sun is leaving for the day and I probably should too. I shouldn’t even be here at all. This has to stop, everyone says so. It’s not healthy, Cady. It’s not right. Not normal, not legal.

But I’m only watching. Watching never hurt anyone. There’s not much to see anyway—just another house sucked dry, the only sign of life the pulse of a television’s blue light. It flickers from the back of the house where I’ve always imagined her living room to be. I can’t [00:14:00] know this for sure though, because I’ve never been invited in, despite those months we were, what I would consider, friends.

The house, a small brick bungalow, has the look of something kept nice out of duty, not love. The driveway and sidewalk are neatly shoveled, but that’s all that suggests someone cares. There’s no months-old Christmas wreath she’s too busy to take down, no welcome mat for visitors to wipe their snow-packed boots on, no sled lying forgotten in the yard, no smoke curling up from the chimney. Not even the bronze lantern hanging over the door has been left on.

Away from the house, closer to me, azalea skeletons guard a concrete walkway. Their fleshy leaves and magenta flowers fell off a long time ago, blowing away or decomposing beneath the weight of the snow, leaving behind a network of woody ribcages. Above: a gray sky. Below: a dirty white carpet. Snow, slashed by the brown dirt of boot treads and the spray of muddy [00:15:00] tires.

It didn’t have to be this way. It did not have to be like this. Her in there with the TV’s sad blue light casting ugly shadows on her pretty face. Me out here in my car, lights off, engine cold, winter biting into my bones until my muscles cramp protectively around them. But here we are.

I tried to help her. The woman inside watching TV alone and dutifully keeping her driveway shoveled. But it’s hard to help someone hanging on by a thread, Dana. Impossible if you’re hanging on to the same one. At some point, despite your good intentions, the instinct to survive kicks in and you claw for that last piece of the fraying thread for yourself.

This, though. The watching. It really must stop. And it will, soon. I’ve promised the therapist, and myself, that it will. We had a session tonight, right before I came here, and I told him I’ve given myself one last visit. (This was also when he suggested I start talking to you. [00:16:00] He thought it might be easier for me to tell you all the things I can’t…won’t…tell him.)

Anyway, he wasn’t impressed.

And then what?

he wanted to know.

And then what will you do, Cady?

Wrong question. He always asks the wrong questions. It’s not what I’m going to do that we should be talking about. It’s what’s already been done. But I can’t tell you that, Dana. I can’t tell you anything without telling you everything you’ve missed.

David Gwyn: What was it about the summary that intrigued you?

Sandy Lu: Well, it’s, it’s unusual. I mean, first of all, it’s very well written, right? We did a little bit long on the long side. Usually when you get a query letter, you don’t want something this long. You want something half the length. But I understand for your purposes, we’re different, but, everything flows.

First of all, you know, it’s a good setup. And it’s very clear. There’s no confusion there. I think that a lot of people don’t understand it. It’s anytime we experience confusion, we don’t take the time to try to figure out what’s going on. We just. Move on to the next thing because we have [00:17:00] time is the, is the commodity that, that, that we don’t have.

Right. So people don’t understand. Oh, you know, you’ll get to this the next party or no, we don’t have the time for that. You know, that’s the thing. So, and I think it goes for readers in general too. When you go to the bookstore, pick up a book that from an author you never heard of. We are competing against not just other debut authors, but established writers and other mediums as well.

So clarity, clarity.

David Gwyn: Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s spot on. It was, it was like one of those and I think to your point, it was one of those blurbs that I read that I was like, I know exactly. What’s happening? I don’t need any more information about what’s happening. Like, let’s get to it. So speaking of what, what was it about that opening page and a half or so?

What was it that really spoke to you? About this submission?

Sandy Lu: Right away, you can just tell, right? Something strange is going on. And when you get to the point where you say it’s not normal and they’re not legal and then right away, that’s like, [00:18:00] whoa, you know, something is not right.

And you, I want to find out more.

David Gwyn: things I actually, I’m, I’m really dying to ask you about, and I hope I can explain this in a way that makes sense.

The blurb for the submission gave us kind of in a lot of ways, like the backstory, and then the opening pages dropped us. Like at the back end of the summary, if that makes sense, like the summary is like, Oh, she’s infatuated with this person and might take it too far.

And then it’s like, boom, she is in the midst of taking it too far. And I was wondering that obviously worked for you in some way. Is that something you see a lot? Is that like a unique query to first pages format?

Sandy Lu: No, I think, I think she started a perfect time. Yeah. Because right away it’s very intriguing, you know, you can just only read so many books that started with a perfect life, you know, I mean, it’s kind of boring, you know what I mean?

And then you have to wait till something happens and then everything changes. I have a feeling she’s probably going to go back. This is the kind of book that’s going to have [00:19:00] flashback or maybe alternate timeline.

David Gwyn: And that’s actually my next question for you, which is like, what are you hoping to see in the next couple of pages from this author that would really make you be excited about continuing to read?

Sandy Lu: Well, I think the next thing is either she would take it a little bit further. Something would happen while she’s watching, or maybe she would take us back to, to what happened, what her connection is with this woman. I mean, it, it really reminds me of You, by Karen, like, Kripnis. And I love that book, so.

So this is like the, you know, the female version of that. I love psychopaths. She’s not, I know she’s not, but it’s a different kind of obsession. You know what I mean? I mean, I was a psych major in college. I even went to grad school for it. So, so human motivation, and connection.

I’ve actually realized that that’s why I love fiction. I mean, why I love psychology, why I love fiction, because the human element to it. And I. [00:20:00] Love dealing with characters much more than dealing with people.

David Gwyn: Yeah, that’s great. So the, the psychology piece I imagine helps when you’re thinking about character motivations when you’re thinking about like even just realistic reactions to things that I find that a lot of authors struggle with sometimes is like they have a reaction that doesn’t fit. So I imagine that psychology background is very helpful.

Sandy Lu: Yes. Yes. I mean, some authors are just so plot driven, they forget about the human element, you can just substitute characters, you know, but why would we care about these particular characters? That has to be clear. Because everything, you know, all genre of fiction is a trope, right? I mean, so why should we care about one book versus the other?

It was a similar plot.

David Gwyn: That’s so interesting. I, I, I love the way that you phrase that. I think that’s really, really useful for people to think about. And I think people do, they get into the weeds too much of their work and they think about the plot. I’m guilty of this. I think I’m like, Oh wait, wait, no, like [00:21:00] this character wouldn’t do that or would do that or whatever it is.

That’s cool. So I could talk to you for hours. This has been so much fun. I just have two more questions for you. One of which is if, you know, a lot of people who listen to this. It’s a podcast for people who are trying to be traditionally published. They’re pitching agents, you know, they’re doing all of the things.

If there’s a one piece of advice that you think you’d like to give to those people who are, are in the trenches in a lot of ways when in the query trenches what is that one piece of advice you would like for them to hear before they carry on with their day?

Sandy Lu: Oh, just one? I don’t know if I can just give one.

David Gwyn: Give as many as you’d like. You’re a wealth of knowledge. I will just sit back and listen.

Sandy Lu: I think one of the most important things is to read. I cannot tell you how many times I get pitches from writers who don’t read. are proud of the fact that they don’t read because they think, they think what they’re creating is much better than what’s already out there.

But how do they know if they haven’t read? They don’t, you don’t know what’s already out there, you know, because [00:22:00] it’s especially for, for writers who want to do this. eventually, you know, you have to take it very seriously. Your art nowadays, really your business too. You know, even, even when you, you’re one of the few lucky ones who get a contract with a publishing company with traditional publisher, you still have to, you know, it’s not like, okay, you can just.

Go right and do nothing else, right? You still have to promote your book. You have to learn to talk about your book. So just get comfortable talking about your book, too. I mean, that’s that’s my advice to a lot of writers who, who get nervous about pitching your book at conferences. I would say, you know, don’t First of all, there’s no wrong answers.

I’m not gonna know if you omit something, only you would know, right? So it’s not a test. There’s nothing to get nervous about. And just think of it as like you’re meeting somebody at a cocktail party, you know? Don’t think of it so like, like, like you’re being interviewed and there’s a test. So when you meet somebody at a cocktail party, you’re much more relaxed and you just bring things up [00:23:00] casually and you want to engage them naturally, And organically, right? And that’s much more interesting. That’s that’s for pitching. Just that’s my advice. Yeah, and you know, there’s always a way to learn. If you don’t get a critique partner or join a writer’s group, go to conferences, just, just. Learn to improve your craft and get a second pair of eyes on it if you can, you know, because sometimes things are just too close to you.

I cannot tell you how many times I get submissions and then a month later they say, Oh, I, I revised it. Can I send you? Do all that before

David Gwyn: you query. Yeah, I will say I’m one of those people who like once I got my writing group and got a critique group, like. My writing improved drastically, as you can imagine and I’m such a proponent of that, of getting a group together because it, it really, even just the, even just the, when you’re all in the trenches together, it makes it a little bit easier to go through when you’re with somebody else.

Sandy Lu: Yes. And also just study other authors work. You can pick, you know, your favorite authors and analyze their book, one thing you can do is maybe look at each chapter and [00:24:00] write one sentence summary of that chapter, and then you see the outline and see how the book comes together.

Each chapter should either advance the plot or, you know, deepen the character and their relationship. If it didn’t do either, then it probably has to go. And also, you know, just, this is how you can learn to, to write as well. And, and see how their books are pitched, right, in the back cover.

And. If you have trouble pitching your own book, then practice on doing that for one of the writers whose book you’re familiar with. If you can encapsulate that book in a few sentences, then with enough practice you can do that for your own book.

David Gwyn: I honestly, like I, I could talk to you forever.

This is, I feel like I’m learning so much and this is so valuable for people to hear. This has been amazing. My last question for you is just where can people find you? Where can people look you up?

Sandy Lu: On my website, bookwyrmlit.com. B O O K W Y R M L I T. I mean, don’t spell it wrong. I mean, I, I, I picked that name for a reason.[00:25:00]

David Gwyn: So I will, and I’ll link to that too. So if you’re listening and you want quick access that will be linked. Sandy, this was amazing. I, I can’t thank you enough. I’ve had so much fun. What a great submission and what a great story for this submission to go through

Okay, so that’s it. If you were paying attention, then you definitely walked away with more than a few important pieces of advice that you can take with you on your writing journey. I write a weekly newsletter through Thriller 101 with exclusive information, advice, and updates you only get if you’re subscribed.

I talk about goal setting, systems, productivity, and I share the best resources and advice for thriller, suspense, and mystery writers from all around the internet. If you want to level up your writing skills, be sure to subscribe. There’s a link in the description where you can do that.

Next time in the podcast, I’ll be talking to New York Times bestselling author, Lisa Unger about her newest novel. You are not going to want to miss that. So be sure to subscribe and I will see you next week.