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🗓 Last Time

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🎙 Interview

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📇 Biography

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📜 Transcript

Elle Grawl: [00:00:00] if you’re in a kind of a psychological thriller or something where your main character might be a little bit more closed off, I think it could be a really helpful way to see them actually sharing, ideas and emotions with people that you might not normally see.

David Gwyn: If all you’re doing is writing a thriller the way they used to be written. You might be missing out on some untapped potential. I’ve been reading a lot of thrillers recently that have this added extra element that works towards building tension.

My guest today is going to share the two that she chose to use in her most recent novel.

And she’s going to share why she chose them. I’m David Gwyn and agent and writer navigating the world of traditional publishing. During this first season of the thriller one-on-one podcast, we’re going to focus on building the skills necessary to write the kind of thrillers that land you, an agent and readers.

I’m talking to authors, agents and industry professionals about the best way to write a novel. If you want the expert secrets, this is where you’re going to find them. Last week on the podcast, I talked to Tori Westminster about how she used a [00:01:00] simple but effective method to gain more than 21,000 followers on social media.

Tori Westminster: I have had my writing group and I have people that I talk to every day that check in on me that have helped me figure out weird pieces in my book that You know, that I just joke around with and, you know, when I have crappy days, they make me feel better. That fill every little nook and cranny of my writing life.

It’s amazing.

David Gwyn: Definitely check out that episode.

If you want to improve your author platform this year. Today’s guest is Elle Grawl. She is a lawyer and author of one of those faeces and what still burns after obtaining her BA in English literature, she took a detour into law before returning to her love of writing. Her lifelong interest in true crime and experiences as an attorney have provided her with plenty of writing material. Elle traveling and spending time with her husband and their two dogs. Let’s get straight into the interview.

Elle, thanks so much for being here. I’m [00:02:00] really excited to chat with you. I’m really dying to talk about your new book.

Elle Grawl: Yeah, thank you so much for having me on. I’m excited to talk about it, so.

David Gwyn: Yeah, we, we got to chat on the Writerly Lifestyle podcast.

I guess it was probably a year ago or so now, maybe, maybe not quite at this point, but Yeah, we got to talk about your first book, and like signing with an agent, and so if you’re listening, I’ll link to that first conversation with Elle. It was really great. We got to talk about her first book and just like all the all the things that were going on around your first book, which is one of those faces.

So we had a, we had a great time and so if you’re listening to this and you want more with Elle, which of course you do please listen to that. So yeah, so let’s, let’s talk about your newest novel, What Still Burns, which I loved. And it’s out now. Can you , tell us what it’s about?

Elle Grawl: Sure. So, What Still Burns follows Lex she’s a journalist in San Francisco but she was also the sole survivor of a childhood fire.

In a small town and that fire claimed her immediate family as an adult, her aunt passes away, and she finds herself having [00:03:00] to return to that small town to wrap up her family’s property and their affairs finally but when she gets there, she finds that, you know, things haven’t really changed.

It’s still a very close knit community that’s suspicious of outsiders, including Lex. There’s also a lot of Misplaced religious zeal in this small town. But the one good thing is that she reconnects with an old flame named Kael there. And he, he starts to help her, you know, get things in order at the property.

But then she begins to get these mysterious phone calls. And she starts to feel like she’s being followed by something that reminds her of her past. And then when bodies start to show up, it becomes pretty clear that something sinister is going on and it might be tied to her past.

David Gwyn: Yeah like I said, like a lot to, a lot to talk about and unpack and I’m really looking forward to diving in.

If you’re listening to this, definitely pick this book up. It had a lot of, which we’ll talk about in a little bit. But a lot going on in like the best way [00:04:00] possible. Like it felt like you were being like dragged from here to there as a reader. Felt like I was being pulled through the story. So really, really great read.

A lot of fun. My first question really is, how did you come up with this story? Where did this story come from?

Elle Grawl: So, this isn’t really a flattering description of my own hometown, but it really comes from, it really comes from you know, expanding on certain experiences I had growing up in the middle of nowhere and I, I don’t know, I wanted to explore how you know, growing up in that kind of environment can look so different.

when you’re a kid versus as an adult, you know, looking back on it and, you know, reflecting on experiences. And I thought putting something together like this and, you know, there is a dual timeline in this story. So you know, it kind of sheds light on the. Kids perspective, you know, kid lex versus adult, how she’s viewing things and how those can get warped sometimes, because, you know, when you are a kid, you perceive things differently.

So anyway, I wanted to [00:05:00] explore that and and, you know, with a family dynamic, because a lot of it is her recollections of her own family before they passed away. And how you know, grief might have shaped her opinion of them as an adult, you know, even when she’s looking back on it. So,

David Gwyn: yeah and, and I do want to, we’ll, we’ll dig in and, and talk about some of the, like, even just the, the touch on like the potential paranormal element and the romantic element.

I thought there was like a lot of really great stuff going on. So what are you working on now? What’s the next project?

Elle Grawl: So my problem is I, I have too many things, too many irons in the fire, but I can’t really talk about any of them. So, so I, I am working on another thriller. But then I also have a, a more traditional mystery that I’m working on.

Polishing right now. And that would be a first for me. So we’ll kind of see what happens with those in the near future. But yeah, that’s

David Gwyn: cool. And so let me ask you more generally, when you’re when you’re taking on a project, obviously, like a major undertaking when you’re taking [00:06:00] on a novel, what are some things that make you feel like, yes, this is a project that is ready to ready for me to like, dive in?

Are you somebody who just has to write through it? Or are you somebody who does a little bit more kind of planning and deciding what type of project you’re going to take on.

Elle Grawl: So I’m not I don’t really identify as a plotter. But I, I do typically just have to write it out. The problem is it’s not very efficient to do that.

So I’ve tried. I’ve tried to find some middle ground. When I was working on the traditional mystery, I thought. That, you know, switching slightly to a different sub genre would be a perfect opportunity to try to do something a little different and more structured. So I did. I was, you know, kind of plotting ahead.

And by plotting, I mean like putting a couple of bullet points on paper. You know, maybe five chapters ahead. So it was still exciting for me to work on the story and everything. So I did that. But with a thriller, it’s really, I have to just kind of dig into it. And then most recently with the [00:07:00] thriller I’m working on, I had the aha moment that I always look for, which is I, I come up with an idea to thicken the plot cause I, you know, I have a general idea of what I want to write.

But sometimes I’m like, yeah, but there needs to be something more. And if it comes to me and it seems like a great idea, then it’s. It’s, you know, it’s something that I’m going to stick with, you know, and see that story through. So,

David Gwyn: yeah. Yeah, that’s great. I, I’m always so interested because I have about, you know, it sounds like you do too, like maybe like two or three or too many ideas to, after this one, I’m kind of like, how am I gonna pick one, and will I know, and how will I know?

So I’m always probing when I have people on who are writing, I’m always like, How do you know? How do you know when you’re ready to like It’s so hard. Yeah. Yeah, like I’m dying to I’m hoping that I had that moment, kind of sounds like the one that you had, where you had a couple of ideas or maybe you were, you know, working on that one idea and then there was a click and you were like, okay, this is the one.

I’m kind of hoping I get that because that would be helpful for me. It,

Elle Grawl: it, and it’s a cliché, but it really comes when you least expect it, because I, [00:08:00] I’ve been kind of writing a few chapters on this book, and then I was, I still love the story without the, the extra flavor that I just added to it.

But I was driving yesterday and listening to a song and then I was like, Oh, that’s it. Like, that’s as simple as it was. I wasn’t even thinking about the story. It just popped up. And then I was like, this is genius. I mean, maybe, maybe not genius, but I was excited about it. That’s awesome. So it’ll, it’ll sneak up on you.

David Gwyn: In that moment, it for sure feels like genius. It’s a, it’s a, it’s a lightning strike for sure. That’s cool. That’s awesome. Good, well hopefully we’ll have you back soon. We’ll be able to talk about it, so. Yeah, that’d be great.

Okay. Let’s pause there for a second.

So far, L share the background for her novel and how she picks her projects in the next part of the interview, she’s going to talk about how she used romantic and paranormal elements in her novel to really ramp up the tension. But before she does that, I wanted to let you know I’m reopening submissions for the thriller one-on-one agent pitch contest just until February 1st. If you miss the first cutoff and want to put your submission [00:09:00] forward for agents to read and potentially request your full. Then go to thriller one-on-one dot com and submit today.

You have until February 1st to submit. So get to it. I’ll link that in the description. Let’s head back to the interview.

So, yeah, so let’s, let’s dive into What Still Burns here a little bit. I, I wanna talk about, it’s this thing I, I’ve been seeing more and more, and I talked to Catherine McKenzie Month or so ago, maybe two months now, and she uses this element as well, too.

Which is like that kind of romantic element Flame from the past kind of feel i’m seeing this a lot in thrillers And I think it’s a really great way to add a lot of depth to a character and and you know that that obviously like you mentioned occurs here with kale. And i’m i’m curious what was like the romantic side of the plot was that always there or was that something that just kind of Happened as you were writing Yeah.

Elle Grawl: So with this story and you know, even one of those faces, there’s kind of a romantic element to it. Those were always an integral part of the story. [00:10:00] And I think I you know, it underwent some. Edits, you know, to get it to where it is now, but yeah, but I, I think it is, like you said, a great device to see a different aspect of the character.

And it’s kind of the same reason why I like using pets or animal companions and thrillers. I think you just see a different side of a person’s, character, whenever they’re interacting with, you know, a pet or a romantic interest, you know, it’s different from how they might be interacting with other people and especially if you’re in a kind of a psychological thriller or something where your main character might be a little bit more closed off, I think it could be a really helpful way to see them actually sharing, ideas and emotions with people that you might not normally see.

David Gwyn: So, I feel like the romantic partner has It’s taken over a lot of what used to be maybe the more traditional like sidekick the best friend and now it’s a romantic partner. I think it’s a really interesting shift I’m just picking up on maybe it’s not maybe it’s always [00:11:00] Finding it but I think it does it creates a lot of depth and and so I’m curious When you’re writing, or maybe this happens in the editing process, are you thinking about how to up the tension in both of these at the same time?

Is this like a balancing act where you’re like, the relationship gets a little bit more intense at the same time that the plot does is that something you’re thinking about? Or is that something that just kind of happens?

Elle Grawl: It’s I think it kind of just happens.

I mean, like I said, obviously there’s a lot of changes that occur in editing to get both of those plots where they need to be you know, lined up. But I think especially with this one, so Cale, he’s a firefighter. And since, you know, her past trauma involves a fire, they’re, they’re pretty directly related with the plot.

And also she, because of that past trauma, she was emotionally stunted in a lot of ways. And so I think, you know, her feelings coming through for Cale is kind of a good way that the reader can connect with her a little bit more. You know, even though she’s more reserved with her [00:12:00] emotions throughout the rest of the story.

So,

David Gwyn: I was thinking about as we were going to chat and I wanted to talk to you and ask you questions about this is I was like, in a romance, I feel like the tension is around. Will the main character end up with this other person and like in the thriller sometimes it’s like i’m not giving anything away here So if you’re listening, you’re like don’t spoil it.

I’m not i’m not I promise but it’s more like oh my god I might end up with someone like that and you’re like they become like kind of like that like oh, is that person? You know, there’s a, there’s a question usually at some point in the film where, like, is that person involved in a way and like I said, I’m not giving anything away, but I feel like the thrillers do that, and it creates so much tension for a reader to read stuff like that, where you’re like, oh my god, how close were you to someone who might be X, Y, or Z, and I think that’s really interesting.

Elle Grawl: Yeah. Well, yeah. And that’s a great point. Whenever I read a thriller and there’s any kind of love interest, I’m immediately like, okay, well, he’s, he’s obviously suspect number one. We’ll see if it pans out. But it’s, it was actually really [00:13:00] interesting for me hearing different people’s takes on Kale as they were reading, certain like critique partners I had read before it was published, they really thought They didn’t think Kale was like, he had the normal level of suspicion that any routine thriller reader has.

But then my, my dad, he was actually one of my early readers and he was, he was suspicious of Kale from like moment one. That’s how I was too, I was the same. Yeah. So it’s just, it’s really funny, you know, how much you know. Getting that response from people. It can be so different how you read a romantic love interest in a thriller.

I think so. Yeah,

David Gwyn: well, I got to ask you now because you brought it up and I think that there’s a major misconception here among writers with what I’m hearing. So you you have an agent, obviously, and you’re publishing books and you have critique partners to where, where are they coming in in that process?

Are you writing Your first draft editing it and then sending it to critique partners and then to your agent like is that the process? Can you talk a little bit about that?[00:14:00]

Elle Grawl: Actually usually my agent is my first reader I try to I try to get it as nice as I feasibly can for her and then Depending on you know, what kind of notes she gives me then I want to go to other readers Once I have a chance to edit it rather than sending it multiple edits to her if it’s not ready.

And so so yeah, I usually get her take on it and then I like to send it to people. And like I said, my dad, he’s one of my biggest like beta readers, I guess. I send stuff to him pretty early, so. I think

David Gwyn: it’s so interesting. It’s, I think it’s one of those misconceptions that people have, they think when they get an agent that they’ll just send their book to the agent.

But I really think that relationship that you have with critique partners is something that is ongoing. And it’s something that, that I’m using now and I, I think it’s, it’s interesting to hear that you go the reverse order that I, I plan on going, like I’m, my part of my book is with my critique partner right now.

And I’m like, it’s so interesting the way these things are. And I think it really does just go back to if you’re, if you’re [00:15:00] listening and you want to be in traditional publishing. Yeah. Know that no two journeys and no two relationships with agents are the same, that everything is different and you just go into it, you know, hoping for what you want out of it.

But I think that’s really interesting for people to hear.

Elle Grawl: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it is. And I think it’s so true that it depends on the agent. But it also a lot of times it comes from a place of I’ve been working on this thing. Is this a thing? You know, I’m asking my agent, you know, is this a good story?

You know, and once, once I get the, the okay from her, then I’m like, okay, good. Now I can, you know, polish it. I can, you know, work on it a little bit more and then send it back to her. So,

David Gwyn: yeah. Yeah. That’s funny. Yeah. And I, I happen to be talking to the Emmy North from Higdon a few weeks ago, too. And in our conversation, I brought up that I talked to Rob Hart, who’s an author.

He goes directly to his editor first and just contacts his editor and just says, I have this idea. Do you think you’d be able to, to, to, you know, edit it? Cause he really likes his editor. And so I [00:16:00] think it is, and there’s another example of like how bizarre the publishing world is. It’s really like a choose your own

Elle Grawl: adventure.

Yes, it

David Gwyn: is. Yeah. That’s super fun. So one other thing I want to ask you is the kind of the touch on the paranormal elements here where we as readers start to think like. Okay, is there something paranormal going on here? Is this her, you know, reality? Is this mental illness? Like what, where does this narrative fall?

I think it was beautifully done and one of those things that adds even more tension to me as a reader is I’m like, Oh, wait, what, what is this? What is happening? And so I’ll ask you kind of the same question, which is, was that something that happened naturally? Is that something that you added for tension purposes?

Like where did that come about?

Elle Grawl: So once again, that kind of comes from a place of my own experience growing up in the middle of nowhere and it’s just I don’t know, there’s something about the countryside and maybe it’s just the small town. I was in. There’s a lot of history there. A lot of which you don’t really know about.

You know, I grew up right down the [00:17:00] street from like a cemetery. We had like an old homestead that had been on our property from like the 1800s and like a, You know, like a creepy covered well on our property. So it’s and then like I said, there’s a lot of religious things going on in the town. So it was just, you know, when I reflect back on my childhood there, I just, there’s kind of this air of, I don’t know, like a mystique about, you know, certain things going on there,

it looks kind of mysterious in the countryside when there’s fog everywhere and you can’t really see what’s going on. And I don’t know. I just, I, it does add a lot of suspense. And I, I thought it was kind of a fun device to play with and a thriller. And, and then, like I said, your perception, I think as a child is really different from, when you grow up and you’re looking back on these things.

So I wanted to play with that.

David Gwyn: Yeah, and, as a reader to have like an unreliable ish narrator where you start to question what, what type of grip they have with reality, I think makes it for a really fun read. So yeah, if you’re listening , I can’t recommend enough you pick up El, El’s [00:18:00] book here What Still Burns, and then One of Those Faces as well.

I mean, you’re playing with Things that I think a lot of thriller writers are using right now, whether it’s paranormal elements, romantic elements, and I think it’s just a masterclass on how to pull these things off. So well done. My last question for you is just where can people find you?

Where can people look you up?

Elle Grawl: Yeah, so I’m I’m not really on Twitter much anymore. I still am you know, occasionally but I’m on Twitter and and. Instagram, and occasionally, very occasionally, TikTok, all under the same handle, ElleGrawl. Just the name written out. And that’s G R A W L. And yeah, that’s, that’s pretty much where I hang out.

On the internet.

David Gwyn: If you’re listening and you want to get in touch with Elle and find her books, I’ll link to, to her stuff in the description. So you have quick access to that, you can check it out. Elle, as always, this is so much fun. Thanks so much for taking the time to chat. Yeah,

Elle Grawl: thank you again for having me.

This is really great.

David Gwyn: Okay. So that’s it. I love the idea of using some of these secondary elements to our [00:19:00] advantage as thriller writers. Plus having something like this in your story can really help it stand out from other submissions.

If you’re querying. Just as a reminder, I’m reopening submissions briefly for the thriller one-on-one agent pitch contest. The form will be open until February 1st. If you’re interested, head over to thriller one-on-one dot com and submit today, link for that is in the description. I will see you next week.