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🗓 Last Time

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🎙 Interview

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📇 Biography

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📜 Transcript

T000 Natasha Sass

T000 Natasha Sass

Natasha C. Sass: [00:00:00] But I wanted very specific for myself, very specific Steps to take in order to write a cozy that was going to work for readers. And so that was my goal. And it made, it just made it easier for me to write. So when I wanted to write my books, it was, it, I just open up my own workbook and I’m like, okay, next step, next step.

This is what I should have, you know, in the next scene

David Gwyn: Does it feel like cozy mysteries are making a comeback? Well, it did to me, so I reached out to cozy expert Natasha C sass. She quite literally wrote the book on cozy mysteries.

And today we’re going to hear what she has to say about the best way to write a cozy. I’m David Gwyn an agented writer in navigating the world of traditional publishing. During this first season of the thriller one-on-one podcast,

we’re going to focus on building the skills necessary to write the kinds of thrillers that land you, an agent and readers.

I’m talking to agents authors and other industry professionals about the best way to write a novel. If you want the expert secrets, this is where you’re going to find them. Last week on the podcast, we talked to Erin Flanigan.

Erin Flanagan: [00:01:00] And so I started sketching out the novel and by the end of the weekend, I felt like I, I knew what I wanted to do. Of course it changed completely. Like that sketch did me no good. I felt great about myself for like 24 hours. And then, then I started writing and oh hell broke loose.

David Gwyn: She shared how she methodically builds tension in her thrillers.

I’ve linked that in the description. If you haven’t already listened to it. So, whether you’re planning on writing a cozy mystery or not today’s guest shares so much great information that will work across any of the thriller suspense or mystery genres. Plus she’s a special gift for thriller one-on-one listeners, which we’ll be talking about a little bit later. Today’s guest has been in the publishing industry for 20 years.

She’s helped to organize regional conferences for authors and teaches classes on writing and self publishing. As a former corporate trainer, she breaks down the complex into understandable pieces to make the business of writing faster and easier. And you’re certainly going to see that in our interview today.

Our bestselling book, how to write a cozy mystery step-by-step is [00:02:00] now available.

And she’s been in the cozy space since 2021, where she published under the pen name, Julia Koty let’s get right into the. interview because there’s a lot to cover.

Natasha, thanks so much for being here and part of the interview series. I’m really excited to chat with you.

Natasha C. Sass: Oh, it’s great to be here. Thanks. Yeah.

David Gwyn: So I want to go all the way back to the beginning here and talk to you a little bit about how you got into the publishing world.

Have you always been interested in writing and

Natasha C. Sass: books? Yeah, I think when I was like seven years old, I read Little House on the Prairie, and like, that was a novel for me, right, and I, as soon as I read it, and I knew that she had written the book, I was like, oh, people can write the books, like, I just, once that hit my brain, I was like, I have to be a writer, and I’ve always been that way ever since, so yeah, it’s always been, I have done my, my work in the technical field, I was a, Tech support person for the longest time.

And I learned training through that. And then I, as soon as I had kids, I was like, I’m staying home. I have all this extra time. I’ll [00:03:00] write books. Yeah. You have kids. You don’t have all the extra, but I did my best. I did my best. That’s

David Gwyn: cool. And we talked a little bit before we started recording and we’re emailing back and forth.

And you’re like an absolute expert when it comes to cozy mysteries. And I feel like they’re having this moment right now. Like they’re just like blowing up. I feel like they’re everywhere. What is it you like so much about cozy mysteries?

Natasha C. Sass: I love the, well, the cozy feel of them. Like one, I love the puzzle.

Like the puzzle is like, okay, who did it? Like the, who done it part is my favorite. But that really. It’s, it’s the starting the world in a cozy space where, you know, everything is good and happy and something like the murder happens and it turns everything upside down, but in a pleasant way. And then, and then it moves along and you try to solve this puzzle.

It’s really about the puzzle and then everything is right with the world again at the end of the book. And I just adore that process of could it be this? Could it be that? And dropping the [00:04:00] clues and the red herrings. It’s just the best . To read and to, and to write them, so.

David Gwyn: I’m dying to know what you think.

Like, what is it about maybe this time? Does it, I mean, does it feel like to you that the, the cozies are having a moment here or is it just me? I

Natasha C. Sass: think it’s more, no, no, I think they’ve been around a while. I think advent of indie publishing also pushed them up too. But I, we’re seeing more and more.

Movies and TV geared towards cozies. And I think that’s why you’re seeing, you’re just seeing it more. Right. So you know, knives out kind of opened the, the, the big Ryan Johnson and poker faces, poker faces, not a cozy but you know, his style. And just, I think that kind of opened the door for people to start seeing cozies in a different way.

David Gwyn: So that’s cool. Yeah. I feel like we think a lot about cozy mysteries and we think of like, Older authors, like from the past, and I feel like mm-hmm. They really are. And maybe it is just that kind of pop culture you know, the popular movies coming [00:05:00] out that, that really makes it feel like people are like, okay, this is fun.

Like, and it is, it’s a really fun ride to go on, I think because. You know that, or at least you assume because it’s a cozy, like you, okay, everything’s going to kind of work out in the end that there’s like a lighter tone. Like you get the same grit of some type of crime or something happening, you know, something on the darker side, but the tone is slightly different, which I know I do want to ask you about a little bit later.

Natasha C. Sass: Yeah, there’s always a happy ending at the end of a cozy. There’s never a bad ending. So, you know, you know what you’re getting into when you open a cozy.

David Gwyn: Yeah, I think that means a lot to readers, too. So tell us about your new book that just came out, How to Write a Cozy Mystery Step by Step, and, and from what I’m hearing, it’s having a ton of success.

So can you tell us a little bit about it and what kind of, how readers are responding to it?

Natasha C. Sass: Yeah well the book itself started originally with a course that I began, and that began because of a workbook I created for myself when I was writing. Like, I needed [00:06:00] some guidance for myself when I was writing books, and it worked so well, I created a course for other writers to take to learn how to do it.

That worked well, but they, students would ask for more examples from other cozy Authors and, and more details. So, I put together the book How to Write a Cozy Mystery, step by step, because it breaks down a different way of plotting than, like, Save the Cat and, like, story structure and things like that.

So I wanted to share that and so I put that together and I really, I loved out. It’s it was a lot of fun and it’s, it is, it’s having a heyday right now. I’m very happy. So,

David Gwyn: yeah, Amazon bestseller, right? Yeah, it is. That’s fantastic. Congratulations.

Natasha C. Sass: Congratulations. I’m hearing it does help people understand cozies better.

So that was my goal and I’m really, I’m really proud of it.

David Gwyn: Yeah, well, I’ve actually, I’ve been on your email list, I forget since when, and the stuff that you share is [00:07:00] so valuable that I, like, don’t write cozies, but I was like, maybe I will someday, I’ll hang out on this email and, like, get, get some stuff, so I can’t even imagine how helpful the book is, I, I can’t even, I can’t even imagine.

Natasha C. Sass: Yeah, yeah, yeah, well it. It’s helped me write my books so that the steps that I take in the book is something that I use for myself. And I think a lot of trainers and teachers do that as they they learn something for themselves. And then teach it and they learn it even better. So I felt like I learned how to write cozies even better after teaching it.

So yeah, it was a really good steps for me in my writing. Great.

David Gwyn: So here on the podcast, because I do this, this pitch series with, with literary agents, we talk a lot about opening pages because as you know, those are the ones that hook agents or readers or publishers or kind of wherever you want your book to land.

It really, a lot hinges on those first couple of pages. And because I write thrillers, I, I tend to talk a lot about thrillers, but a lot of people who listen are writing a cozy or write cozy [00:08:00] mysteries. And so I brought you on as, as our expert here what needs to be in those, what maybe three to five things need to be in the, in the opening of a cozy mystery.

Yeah. Yeah.

Natasha C. Sass: So with a cozy, you’re in, you have to introduce the story in the cozy world so that everyone’s comfortable. There’s, you’re not, you can be in medias res, but not in a drama type setting, right? Like a thriller might be. So you introduce the cozy world that where everything is peaceful and calm.

And usually you start with your sleuth, you introduce the sleuth and the sidekick and their relationship. And it’s usually When I like to introduce both of them together in their community based job, that seems to be a mainstay in COSYS is this community based job. It helps actually solve The crimes because they get access to the community where they get the information.

So you start with building that relationship out and the sidekick in a crime novel is that purse that sounding board for the sleuth as they go through the process of solving the crime. [00:09:00] So you set that relationship up and then I think the next thing that I would do in the beginning is that internal question that pretty much every character in every book has that the question that the reader needs solved by the end of the book or the end of a series or or whatever that that that angst or question that the, the, that they’re you the main characters trying to solve for themselves.

That’s the question you kind of want to pose at the beginning. And that kind of pulls a reader into reading an entire, you know, series or a, or the book itself. So I usually try to get that question in early. And then the unique thing for cozy’s, I think that you want to do early on is introduce the sleuths special skill.

So if you’ve watched monk or let’s see psych or any of the, Cozy, mystery esque TV shows, you’ll know that, like, Monk has OCD, and the, and that helps him be extremely observant, and Sean in Psych is also hyper observant because his dad made him that way, and so [00:10:00] that’s a special skill, and you usually show that very early on because that is foreshadowing what’s going to help them solve the crime in, like, Act 3 and the end to Act 4, so that, those are the three top things that I would, that you really have to.

Kind of focus on in that beginning.

David Gwyn: Okay. Let’s pause there for a second. If you’re anything like me, you’re listening to this podcast on the go and you’re probably in the car or on a walk.

So I want us to summarize what we’ve heard so far. First, let’s go over those three suggestions for how to open a cozy mystery. One start your cozy in the cozy world. This means that they’re comfortable, not necessarily drama fuel the way a thriller might be. Hearing this made me think a lot about the way most movies open.

The main character is just living her life and we’re given a front row seat to the normal world. To do this. You’ll want to introduce the sleuth, her sidekick. And the community-based job that will ultimately help them get access to the community of the cozy world.

Number two. What is the overarching internal question that [00:11:00] needs to be solved? This sounds like it’s different than just the crime.

It’s about what readers want to know and have solved by the end of the book. LaStly, you want to introduce the sleuths special skill? What can they do that is unique and will ultimately help them solve the crime? . In the next part of the interview, Natasha. And I talk about how to nail the tricky tone of the cozy mystery. . She’s also going to share that resource that I told you about in the opening, but I’ll let her talk about it first and then I’ll actually share my experience with it.

Let’s head back to the interview. It’s funny to hear like shades of the way they’re similar to a thriller, but also not at all. It really feels

Natasha C. Sass: different. I mean structure for all the books are very similar. True.

And so my What I wanted to do with this book and my classes was try to drill it down to what exactly does it look like for Cozy, like it, the overall plotting and arc and everything, they’re very similar. If you look at Save the Cat and you look at the story structure and, and all the, all the books on plotting, they’re very [00:12:00] similar.

They use different words to describe things, but they’re the same thing. But I wanted very specific for myself, very specific Steps to take in order to write a cozy that was going to work for readers. And so that was my goal. And it made, it just made it easier for me to write. So when I wanted to write my books, it was, it, I just open up my own workbook and I’m like, okay, next step, next step.

This is what I should have, you know, in the next scene. So, yeah,

David Gwyn: that’s great. So the other thing I wanted to ask you about, which I think is like. quintessential, unmistakable cozy, which is, is the tone, right? Like that feeling where, yes, someone’s missing. Yes, there’s a dead body, but there’s like a light hardness to tone.

Do you have any advice for writers on how to like kind of strike that balance?

Natasha C. Sass: Yeah, I think it’s really important to understand the cozy tone when you’re writing a cozy. If you’re off on it, the readers I’m very vocal about not like, Hey, this doesn’t happen in these books because they’re going into it looking for a very [00:13:00] specific story that is usually very clean.

There’s usually not any swearing. And of course, different authors vary on their level of tone, you know, up and down. There’s, you can go very humorous to a little bit more serious, but there’s still parameters, right? If I were advising anybody that wanted to write cozies, I’d say you want to go in and look at your sub genre of cozy that you’re gonna write in.

So, there’s historical, the, the cozy cat, the cozy craft cozy culinary and then paranormal, which is the witch cozies. So, each one of those sub genres, you go and you read in that sub genre because there’s very specific things and tone in each one of those that you want to try to strike a balance with.

And you really can’t learn, like I can’t say this is the tone because you, you really need to have kind of a you know, read 10 to 20 of the books, you kind of get an idea of where that is. But in general, it’s clean. There’s no harm to any animals or children or, or vulnerable adults like that. It’s very.

[00:14:00] That’s a hard and fast rule but in general, everything’s a little flexible, but there are rules. And so the best way to understand it is to read inside the subgenre.

David Gwyn: Yeah, I think considering reader expectation is really important, really in any genre. Like there’s certain things, yes, there’s some flexibility, like you mentioned, you always want to come up with some type of unique premise, but it certainly has to play.

By some rules because readers are expecting that. I mean, they’re picking up that book for a reason. And you want to make sure you’re giving them what they want. I’m like stuck on witch cozy. I’m like, I need some of that in my life.

Natasha C. Sass: I’ve actually, I’m shifting gears and I’m, I was writing light paranormal cozy.

Now I’m going to go over to Full on witch cozies and and and do that. So I’m gonna do my research. I’m gonna go dig deep. I’m already reading lots it’s gonna be fun that’s one of the things about cozy mysteries that I love so much is that It’s just gonna be a fun ride Like it’s gonna be fun learning how to right the style that I want the the characters I’m gonna [00:15:00] learn I just I love it.

It’s Like a good time. Yeah.

David Gwyn: So speaking of reading, I’m, I’m curious. So for people like me who are listening and they’re like, wait, cozy seem kind of cool. Can you give us a few recommendations for some recent novels that you kind of personally enjoyed that people might want to check out?

Natasha C. Sass: I really hesitate on saying specific ones because I will go towards the very humorous ones if I can, but there’s such a wide range.

So again, yeah. I would pick, you know, is it historical that you like, is it the witch cozies that you want to go into and really dig into the top sellers in that. In that subgenre because you’re going to find something that you’re going to love.

David Gwyn: Yeah, that’s great. No, I mean, I think that’s great advice for people to think about.

I didn’t even know there were cozy subgenres. And now, like I said, I think I, I think I found a new subgenre that I’m into. Which is fun.

So the, the nature of whether you’re, whether you’re somebody who’s querying you know, self publishing or, indie publishing , you really need [00:16:00] to make a splash in some way. And so if there’s someone sitting there listening to this a lot of people who listen are trying to go traditional publishing, trying to land an agent.

Is there. A piece of advice, something that you think is the most important, like, hey, if you’re going to write a cozy, make sure you do this thing. Like, what is that kind of maybe one piece of advice that you

Natasha C. Sass: have? It’s a good question. I think if, if we’re looking at traditional market, I would look at traditional cozies that are published.

Because they’re slightly different than the indie published Cozy Mysteries. And I would just, I would look at those and see who’s publishing them, what agents are repping them, and, and read those books . There’s like a very slight shift between the two. And I think it’s really important , If you are going in the traditional market to pay attention to that specifically of course, read widely.

Always read widely. But if that’s what you’re targeting, then I would, I would look there. I can’t speak on that. I mean, I, I was traditional starting out. I did middle grade and I think part of the voice and cozy’s is very similar to middle grade voice. But yeah, I haven’t, [00:17:00] I haven’t researched traditional cozy.

I do independently published. So yeah. I love the speed of that for me. I don’t have a long attention span. So my books are short, my publishing schedules quick. So yeah.

David Gwyn: And so let me ask you, do you see a difference in topic for traditionally published versus indie published?

Or are you seeing like, what differences are you noting?

Natasha C. Sass: They’re longer. I think traditionally published cozies are on the longer side. But again, cozy readers are very flexible. As long as they get that puzzle and it gets solved from, you know, beginning to end, then they’re, they’re happy. so I’m going to say these things, but I, that can change by the time the podcast airs, so, you know, I know that there’s some shift towards trying to get a younger audience in Traditional Cozies. I don’t know if that will be successful. I know a majority of my readers are over 65. So I know who my audience is. I think Traditional is trying to see if they can pull in younger audiences. I don’t know how that’s going to work for them, [00:18:00] but That’s why you really do need to research when you’re, if that’s the market you’re going to target, then, then definitely check the books out that are exactly where you want to land.

David Gwyn: Natasha, you are like an absolute wealth of knowledge. I feel like I could ask you a million questions

because like I said, you, like you share so much great information. I would love anyone who’s listening, if you’re thinking about cozies , find Natasha. So Natasha, where can people find you? Where can people look you up?

Natasha C. Sass: Sure. Okay. Well, first you can find me at my website. It’s natashacsass.com. And I have my workshops and everything on there. You can, you can find information there. If you are looking into cozies, I have a workbook that walks you through building your sleuth and building your side characters making sure they’re on point for your readers.

So that’s available for free on. And then if you guys can check out my book, that would be awesome. It’s how to write cozy mystery step by step. And that’s available wherever you buy books.

David Gwyn: So I’ll link to all that stuff. So if you’re listening and you’re like me and you’re like, wait, cozy sounds like a lot of fun.

I will link to all that stuff. So that you have quick access to Natasha, Natasha, this has been so much fun. I feel like I’ve [00:19:00] learned so much about cozies and just about kind of the style and the tone and what to include. So this has been really fun. Thanks so much for being here.

Thank you for having

Natasha C. Sass: me,

David Gwyn: All right. So that’s it. Like I said, I really liked hearing about the similarities and differences between cozies and more traditional thrillers. And have you have any recommendations for which cozies send them my way?

Natasha shared a really cool resource. I have to be honest, I went through this workbook. I think you might actually see a cozy mystery for me in the future. It’s a really well organized work boat that gave me so many cool ideas. If you’re considering a cozy, I highly suggest you check out the link in the description.

‘ cause I think it’ll help organize your thoughts

David Gwyn: also, I write a weekly newsletter through thriller 1 0 1 with exclusive information, advice and updates.

You only get in the newsletter. I’m talking about goal setting systems productivity, and I share the best resources and advice from thriller writers from all around the internet. If you want to level up on your writing skills, be sure to subscribe.

There’s a link in the description where you can do that. Next time on the podcast, I’ll be talking to Tori Westminster about how she’s grown her [00:20:00] social media account to over 20,000 followers. She gives really actionable advice. So be sure to subscribe to the podcast. So you don’t miss that episode next week and I’ll see you then.