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🗓 Last Time

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🎙 Interview

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📇 Biography

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📜 Transcript

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: [00:00:00] Because that fit between agent and author is so hard to find. Like that really good, and it’s so satisfying for both.

people when it’s really good. You know, like it’s a really nice relationship when it works out well. So I love that.

David Gwyn: Hey, everyone. In today’s episode, we’re going to hear from a literary agent about what you need in your opening pages. If you’re hoping to sign with an agent this year, then you’re going to love the clear and actionable steps outlined in this episode. I’m David Gwyn an agented writer navigating the world of traditional publishing. During this first season of the thriller one-on-one podcast, we’re going to focus on building the skills necessary to write the kinds of thrillers that land you, an agent and readers. I’m talking to agents and authors about the best way to write a novel.

If you want the experts secrets, this is where you’re going to find them. Last week on the podcast, I shared some important information to help you write the opening of your story. I thought it would be really beneficial to take the lessons I’m learning from the experts and put it into some valuable lessons for you. So you can take some actionable steps. [00:01:00] If you want to check out the full list, I made a five day email mini course with everything I’ve learned from agents about how to grab a reader’s attention. You can join that mini course now by clicking the link in the description. Today’s guest is Emmy Nordstrom Higdon. Emmy holds a PhD in justice oriented social work with a focus on critical animal studies. They are a member of the planning team for the festival of literary diversity, a faculty member at the manuscript academy and the literary agent at Westwood creative artists.

They are a queer trans and non-binary colonizer based in Toronto.

Emmy lives with their partner, a deaf Dalmatian named palbo. To formerly feral, Maine, Coon cats. Whisper and Willow. And their collection of plants informally nicknamed the leafy boys.

Emmy has a ton of great information to share. So let’s get straight to the interview.

Emmy, thanks so much for being here for this pitch series. I’m really excited to chat with you. This is the second time we’ve, we’ve had the opportunity to chat and it’s always [00:02:00] awesome. So I really, really appreciate you taking the time.

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: Oh, it’s always so much more fun for me when it’s the second time around because I’m a very, I might, I don’t come across maybe as.

I’m not as shy as I am when I’m meeting new people, but it’s always way more comfortable when I know somebody, so I’m really excited to be back.

David Gwyn: Good, yeah, I feel like it does. Once you, we have the first go around, you’re like, okay, you know what to expect at least.

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: Exactly.

David Gwyn: Yeah, the last time we chatted, we talked about, we talked about diversity in writing, and I thought it was such an awesome conversation for people.

So if you’re listening to this and you didn’t catch that conversation, I will link it because I think it’s a really useful conversation for, for writers who want to integrate diversity. Yeah, and they just, they’re not really sure how,

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: I love having conversations like that because I feel like sometimes we get to answer the questions that people are like afraid to ask, you know?

David Gwyn: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. And no, it was, it was, it was one of those where I learned a lot and I think people will too if they listen. So yeah, if you’re listening to this and you’re like, Oh, I think I missed that one. Definitely go check that out. [00:03:00] For sure. And we have, we have a great submission to talk about today, but before we do, I want to.

Talk a little bit about you and your agenting interests and kind of where, where you are now, because it has been, I think it’s been a little over a year since we chatted, I think, give or take. So

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: what is time?

David Gwyn: So talk a little bit about where you are now and you’re in your agenting, you know, what, what you’re looking for, those types of things.

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: Yeah, it’s weird. I feel like recently I’ve started feeling a little bit less like I’m brand new when I’m introducing myself to people, which is like a weird feeling. But I’ve been agenting for about four years now, which is like, honestly, like my career journey has been like fun, but complex. So for me, like four years feels like a nice amount of time.

Like I feel like I’ve settled into this like role that I have, which is exciting. And I’ve been at Westwood for about. three of those years. So the first year I spent kind of learning and hopping around a bit and then yeah, I’ve been at Westwood since 2020 now. So[00:04:00] I just passed my like three year anniversary recently.

But yeah, it continues to be a really interesting, like nourishing place to be. My team is great. We You know, like, I’m still one of the most junior people on our team, which is, like, for me, such a blessing, because I get to learn so much from people who, you know, have been doing this in some cases, like, for longer than I’ve been alive, like, my coworkers are incredible, so, yeah, there’s just a wealth of knowledge, I feel like I appreciate it.

always have someone to turn to when I have questions and things like that, which is awesome. We were just talking before we started recording about how kind of like destabilized and uncertain publishing can be. So like, those people are wonderful to have around. And yeah, we do international rights in house.

So we have, our folks are at Frankfurt right now, so it’s a really busy, but like exciting time. And yeah, I, because I came into publishing like from academia, I’ve still, I’m still doing some of that work too. So it’s [00:05:00] interesting to see over time, like what sorts of things I get to like dip in and out of as, as things evolve, you know, so it’s really exciting.

It’s fun to have clients too, who are like now on their second and third projects. For the first couple of years, you know, you’re, working like a hundred percent most of the time with debut authors. So they, you know, it’s often like the first project that they’ve ever worked on. And so now I have some authors that are a little bit more established and getting into a bit of a routine and that’s really cool and different from, you know, like an agenting perspective as well.

So yeah, it’s been a really interesting ride. That’s so interesting.

David Gwyn: I hadn’t thought about that. What do you find is like the biggest difference for, for most writers coming from Book one to book two. I mean, do they know what to expect from working with you from like an editing standpoint? Like, do you find that these things can be cleaner?

What is the big difference that you notice?

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: Oh man. I mean, it’s different for everybody of course, but I definitely feel like for like for my relationship with my authors, it’s great because we’ve already done it once [00:06:00] before, you know what I mean? So anything that we did that we could improve upon from the first time, I think like often the relationship between us is stronger and the process is just way more streamlined because.

You know, the author has done it already so, when they send things to me, they know a little bit more kind of what to expect and like where we’re going, like what the ultimate goal is. It’s interesting because the, you know, people, I think that’s something that people who aren’t authors don’t think about very much is that when an author is, Writing often you have like years and years and years to write your first book, you know, like I’ve it’s not uncommon that I get queries from people who are like, Oh, I’ve been working on this novel on and off for like 10 years or because people have lives, right?

Like, it takes a long time to write a book. So especially when it’s not like your primary gig, like Sometimes it takes people, like, a really long time and it usually, you usually don’t get that kind of time for your second book. So, you know, like, it’s a really, it’s an interesting learning curve because even though it might be, like, kind of the [00:07:00] second round for a lot of people, like, it’s still in some ways kind of your first rodeo because all of a sudden instead of having, like, unlimited time to write and then you’re querying and all of those things, like, You have an editor who’s like, okay, what’s next?

Like 11 months after you’ve finished your first book. And so like people respond differently to that kind of pressure. Some people do really, really well. And some people find it really stressful. Either way, like, you know, people get through it, but the industry is a challenge too, because often the second book is an option book.

So depending on what’s happened. Like, within the imprint that published your first book, or within, you know, the climate of publishing, like, it can be really, really challenging, and I think it’s becoming less and less of kind of a like a foregone conclusion that editors will take option books. So, yeah, it’s been, like, it can be a really emotional time for people, too, especially if, like, it doesn’t go quite as smoothly the second time as their first time or something like that.

So, yeah, it’s, like, It’s really, really interesting for [00:08:00] me. It’s also like, yeah, it can be, it can be emotional for me too, especially if it’s, you know, like a project that I’m really invested in or an author who I’ve known for a long time, something like that. So yeah, it’s, you know, we’re, because we do everything kind of as a team, it’s, it can feel like a bit of a roller coaster sometimes.

Yeah.

David Gwyn: And so can you talk a little bit about the Spine Squad, which is the coolest author group name ever. Thank you. Can you talk a little bit about, like, what’s, what’s coming up? What you’ve got out? What, where,

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: where are people now? I mean, I’m so lucky. Like, I have, Such an amazing group of authors that I get to work with.

And right now, especially this year, I haven’t, unfortunately, been able to stay open for queries very much just because we had some shuffling within the agency. And so my responsibilities changed. So trying to make sure that all of my clients get prioritized kind of before my queries do. Because, of course, like they all have their own stuff going on too.

So I always want to make sure that they’re getting kind of like The first stab at my energy [00:09:00] and then new clients kind of come after. So yeah, I’ve, but through all of that, they’ve just been like so incredibly supportive and honestly, like, I don’t know if I would have the patience with me that some of my clients do.

So yeah, I’m really, really lucky. We just announced the other day a really exciting project that one of my authors, who’s local to me, Vin Nguyen, is publishing an essay collection that was so much fun to sell. It went to auction and it was the first auction I’d had in a little while.

Like five or six interested publishers. So that’s always like so much fun to kind of move between you know, people who are really enthusiastic about a project that you’re working on. It’s a really interesting collection because it’s mostly kind of memoir, like autobiographical. He, his family came to Canada as refugees from Vietnam.

So it’s sort of based around that experience, but his. Father died when he was younger and sort of in the refugee process and they had been separated and his family had kind of [00:10:00] not come back together in the way that, you know, sometimes families do. And so there are some sort of speculative pieces to the collection too, which made it A little bit, like, confusing for publishers, so I’m just glad we finally did, like, the editor who purchased it really gets it.

Her name is Janice, she’s at HarperCollins Canada, and, like, and it’s, we’ve also sold the rights in the U. S. to Dan Smetanka at counterpoint. And so yeah, it’s just been, like, so fun to see how that’s come together and how those elements, like, how we navigate those spaces. Because it’s not always that we have a book that’s, simple in the sense that, like, we can pitch it really easily and it’s a really clear vision.

So when people really understand what it is that you’re Going for I think it makes it like so satisfying when the book really finds its home So we just announced that one the other day. It’s coming out It’s actually coming out really soon in 2025 for the anniversary of the end of the Vietnam War That was one of the other constraints is that we wanted to see if we could [00:11:00] get it published by that time And it’s a really quick turnaround for a full length book.

So, you know, it’ll be a wild ride But like a good one, I think and Vin is very He’s very established as a short story author and as an academic as well, so I think he can handle it. And then the other one that I have coming out that’s really exciting is Paige Lael, who is an autism advocate.

Her memoir is coming out soon ish, and we have just kind of done, like, the cover reveal and things like that recently, so that’s been really fun, too. It’s always exciting when we kind of, like, get to release things into the world, finally. So, the Bound Galleys are coming for that, and now that we’re, like, out of You know, critical paper shortage time, which we were for in for a while.

We’re not like out of the woods, but at least paper exists again, we get to have things like bound galleys again. So that’s really exciting too.

One of my clients Kelly Olert, just put out her second book it’s called Let’s Get Quizzical, and it’s like a super fun rom com. I actually really loved her first book, and I didn’t think that she was going to be able to top it for me, because the [00:12:00] first one was about a chicken, and I love chickens.

And so I was like, there’s no way that any other book is going to be as good as this first one. I just have to accept that and move on. But actually, I liked the second one better. They’re not connected in any way other than the fact that she wrote them both, but it’s about it kind of has like a trivia show, like a kitschy theme show theme around like kitschy television shows.

So yeah, it’s a really fun one. And yeah, that just was released on Tuesday. So that’s when people can actually purchase if they want to. So yeah, lots going on always. Lots of projects I’m really excited about. I could probably talk to you about every single one of them and what they’re all doing, but yeah.

David Gwyn: That’s awesome. That’s really exciting. It sounds like, yes,

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: sounds like a lot. Yeah, that’s good stuff. So,

David Gwyn: I want to talk. Generally, before we get to this specific submission, I want to talk about in the first in like a query in first couple pages.

What are some things that you’re [00:13:00] looking for inquiries that you get? Are you like? Are you a query first, then pages, pages first, then query? Like, what do you, how do you tackle

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: these and what are you looking for? I love that you want to talk about this because I just did a query workshop last night. So it’s all like fresh in my mind.

Yeah, exactly. I am a query first person. And part of that is just because you know, trial by fire as an agent over time, you learn how important it is to get to know the people who are writing the books. I have been really, really lucky to click really well with like 90 percent of my clients but of course like there are always some people who like have different work styles and things like that and so that’s always at the front of my mind when I’m reading a query.

And so that’s why I always start with the letters because I like to kind of get a sense of like who the person is and where they’re coming from. Like just as much as I want to get a sense of the book. Because that fit between agent and author is so hard to find. Like that really good, and it’s so satisfying for both.

people when it’s really good. You know, like it’s a really nice relationship when it works out well. [00:14:00] So I love that. So yeah, when I’m looking at a query, I like, I’m pretty traditional to be honest, because I find that like, for me, it’s more like a tool of like, okay, I like get this information that I need.

And then I get to go and read the pages, right? So I’m kind of a purist when it comes to queries that way. And I think part of that is also because my, the way that my agency functions We get our queries, like, all together in a central database, and so then, like, we take turns as an agency, like, going through them and dispersing them out to everyone and things like that, and so, just for the sake of, like, the red tape, like, it’s very simple when a query is, like, super easy, straightforward, to the point.

If people get a little more creative, like, sometimes it’s fun, but also sometimes you’re like, okay, guys, like, tell me what I’m looking at here so that I can, like, send it to somebody who wants to read it. Yeah, yeah. So. Yeah, so yeah, I’m always looking for, like, you know, good metadata, just like the bare bones facts.

I’m always looking at comps, obviously. I think we all, like, find those [00:15:00] interesting. It’s not, like, a deal breaker for me, the comps ever, but I’m always curious about what people will pick. A good summary, obviously. I’m usually, in the summary, looking for, like, a hook, an introduction to, like, a main character, and then something about the central conflict.

I don’t want, like, the whole story in a query letter, because then I’m like, what else am I going to find out? And then yeah, like I, I think the bio is really important only because I like to know, I tell people like one thing that I really look for Ideally in a query letter is to know what people’s editorial experience is So like if they’ve had feedback if they’ve worked with feedback before so like do you have a critique partner?

Do you have you published before like have you gone to conferences like that kind of thing? And that’s never like because I don’t like to work with new authors. It’s because, it’s just because I find it makes the starting point so much easier to know and to understand because some people I’ve come in really hot with lots of feedback and they’ve been really overwhelmed.

There have definitely, I have definitely made people cry, not on purpose, but like it has [00:16:00] happened for sure. And I always feel terrible when I like overestimate that. But on the flip side, you also want to make sure that authors are getting what they need, right? So sometimes I’ve had people who are like a little more experienced than I think and their skin is a little thicker and they come back and they’re like, okay, but can you give me something like a little more useful?

You know, so I’m like, oh, I see. So yeah, there’s a like, it’s interesting to know kind of where people are coming from. So that’s kind of what I always read. Bios for is for like a little bit of kind of personality fit and then also like what have you done in the past that’s gonna like make my life easier or like that I should take into consideration for, you know, like sparing people’s feelings in a lot of, in a lot of ways, like making it a fruitful experience and not like a damaging one for people.

David Gwyn: Right, yeah, you’re certainly shooting for for something a little bit higher than damaging, right?

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: Well, but it can, you know, it’s such an emotional process having your work critiqued, and, people who have lots of experience know, but, like, if people have never done it before, , you can kind of think, oh, [00:17:00] this is super beneficial, and still, when you read it, like, I mean, still, even when I get my work critiqued, and I do this, , all day every day, , when people read my work, I’m, like, so nervous, you know?

It’s still that kind of like, you know, sometimes people say things and it really just like, it hits a chord or something and you’re like, Oh, that one hurt, you know? So sometimes, yeah, it’s just good to know what people are used to so that like, you don’t go hard in another direction and throw them a curve ball that like makes their work or even just their life like more difficult than it needs to be.

David Gwyn: It’s funny, I, I have a process when I get feedback, especially from someone I respect, like one of my critique partners or my agent. What I do is I read it and I don’t do anything with it. Yes. , I’m like, I’m gonna give myself 24 hours. This is a good process.

Yeah. To like digest,

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: get

David Gwyn: over. Yeah. And like do nothing with it. Yeah. And, and I, I keep going back to, and this is the way I, I tend to think about things. I, I was an athlete growing up and, and played a lot of sports and I, I always think of it. In that format of like a coach, like I’ve had coaches scream at me and [00:18:00] yell at me, but at the end of the day, it’s because we wanted the same thing.

They wanted me to be better and we wanted to win the game. And that’s, that’s what all of really editing, if you’re trusting the person and you know, that means spirited, obviously, but if you’re trusting the person, like they want you to write better and they want you to publish a book. So it’s like. It’s, but it takes me

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: 24 hours to get through.

Exactly. I always tell people, like, publishing is so slow, right? Like, if you read something and it’s awful, like, you don’t need to reply right away. You don’t even need to think about it right away. You can, like, put it in a drawer and, like, let it simmer. You know what I mean? Yes. And I feel like sometimes, too, like, once you’ve, At least for me, I’m like the, I’m a huge worrier, so like when I read something, sometimes I’ll read it and it’ll feel so bad, and then I’ll come back like two days later, having now built it up in my head, right?

And I read it again and I’m like, oh, it’s actually like really not as bad as I thought. Like, it’s just that first read can be like real intense sometimes. So yeah, I always tell people like [00:19:00] it’s normal to have those reactions, and also like you’re proud of what you’ve done, right? So it’s totally normal to feel defensive also.

And Like, as a writer, being defensive doesn’t really help you, even though that’s, like, our natural inclination, is to be, like, mama bear to our work. But what, ideally, you want is to actually be able to, like, take it in and be like, okay, why are they saying this? Like, you don’t need to be able to make every change, you know what I mean?

I don’t expect people to take my advice, like, wholesale all the time. But I want people to know why they’re writing the way they are and be able to justify it if… you know, it comes up later down the line because there’s going to be all kinds of people reading it. So, you know, you want to be able to say like, this is why I feel this way.

If, if it’s something that like strikes somebody differently than you think it might. So I do think it’s important. But yeah, I do tell people like, take your time. Like, I’m not going to be sitting at my keyboard, like waiting for you to get back to me. You know what I mean? So like, you do you.

David Gwyn: That’s good.

That’s good [00:20:00] advice. I

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: feel like for people out there. Do it with ice cream.

David Gwyn: Even better advice. That’s even better.

Okay. Let’s pause there for a second. So far, we’ve talked about what Emmy is looking for in a submission. Now we’re going to listen to an actual submission so we can discuss what Emmy loved about the opening. Let’s get right to it.

Emily (2): Summary:

Murder, She Wrote mixed with Empire Records. Halloween, 1997. Jesse moved back home after her grandpa’s death to run the family video store. When a body is discovered murdered the morning after a party, and Jesse’s crush is a prime suspect, she starts investigating.

Chapter One

The Crush

Thursday October 23rd, 1997  

Sweat prickled the back of my neck and my heart raced as I pedaled my trusty light gray Peugeot down the road feeling light and free. It was one of those crisp fall mornings where possibility floated in the breeze with the leaves. The birds chirped off in the distance and a chilly wind hit my face as I rode to open my video store Play it Again Sam, after having a delicious coffee with a [00:21:00] friend.

A stunning red leaf floated down from a nearby tree and caught my attention, so I wasn’t looking at the street when a beat-up silver Corvette nearly sideswiped me, its back end cutting into the shoulder of the road.  

I swerved to avoid it and hit a patch of wet leaves, my bike tire spinning out as fast as my heartbeat. I was just able to steer myself to a patch of grass on the side of the road, my bones rattling on the bumpy ground, before I completely wiped out. The vision of a tattered photograph of my mother’s face flashed in my mind right before I hit the ground. The fact that it was a photo and not her actual face stung more than my scraped knee.   

The silver Corvette with rusty patches of missing paint rolled by a hand sticking out the driver’s side window waving. Tommy Miller leaned out the window. “Watch out on these slick roads JB Fletcher!”

I gave him an unkind gesture as he drove off, Judas Priest blaring from his open window. I hated that nickname. Well, I actually didn’t mind too much when other people called me that, just when Tommy did. JB Fletcher is the nickname I’d had since high school—as in the old lady sleuth from Murder She Wrote. In ninth grade, the Falcon statue that perched in the [00:22:00] middle of the senior mixing room went missing. I figured out who did it by following the clues left by the culprits and talking to all the witnesses. It wasn’t that hard. One of them had left a literal trail of fine glitter. The head cheerleader at our rival school always wore body glitter. You do the math. But the nickname stuck mostly because our initials matched—JB, Jessica Beaudon. But also, because we both rode bicycles to get around.  

A white van pulled over as I stood and brushed off dirt and grass from my clothes. The stains and blood spot on my knee weren’t going anywhere, but I’d lived through worse. I would survive.

Ben Walker sprang out of the van. His dark skin glistened with raindrops, and pins saying things like “DK” and “Ska 4 ever” covered his ripped jean jacket.  

I looked down at my carefully chosen outfit of a white baby t-shirt under a blue sundress with spaghetti straps, long wool socks, my eight-eye black Doc Martens and my ratty red pea coat.

David Gwyn: So let’s talk a little bit about this submission. What was it first about the summary that made you [00:23:00] kind of your interests get peaked?

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: I’m such a child of the 90s. I, like, it’s shameless. I don’t even know, I don’t, yeah, I don’t think it’s appropriate how much I miss the 90s. Like, I don’t miss the reality of the 90s at all, to be honest. Like, as a queer person, I understand that we were, like, less than perfect back then, but also, , there’s just, I think a lot, like, a lot of millennials, like, it was such a vibe.

And so a lot of things, even though I think we’re being a little premature about it in publishing, I’m not gonna lie, like, I don’t know that we’re that far away from the 90s that we really have the right to look back on them with the fondness that we do just yet, but the aesthetic of the 90s is something that, like, will always suck me in.

And to be honest, I have never been a really big cozy person, like, until maybe the last, like, year. I used to think they were like super, super, like, I totally understood the appeal. I was like, okay, I get this. Like, formulaically, I understand it, but they just wouldn’t suck me in when I’d start reading them.

I’d get bored after a little while. And also, sometimes I find cozies a little bit [00:24:00] jarring. Like, there’s this, like, cozy, comfy, wholesome setup, and then all of a sudden, like, murder, you know? So, it’s a weird, it’s a weird concept, but. Yes. I’m really into it at this point. I’ve like gotten over the hurdle or whatever and so when I started reading this I just thought it was cute anything to do with a video store first of all like it is going to suck me in and also murder it continues to be my comfort read even after all these years.

I did truly grow up in the 90s. And, like, reading all those, horrible true crime novels that we used to have, those paperback ones you’d find in, the grocery store that were, like, published probably by a tabloid or something, yeah, that was my jam when I was, like, 11. So, so yeah, I’m all about murder mysteries which is why I say that comps are so fun sometimes, because the comp of Murder, She Wrote is just something that, like, I haven’t seen a lot.

So I thought that was a really cute one mixed with that, like, vibey 1997, like Halloween, of course, who doesn’t love Halloween? So yeah, it was just a lot of catnip all at once.

David Gwyn: It’s so funny you say

that. I feel like cozy [00:25:00] mysteries are like, I don’t know if like having a moment. Is the right phrase for it, but like, it really feels like a lot of people are dipping into cozy mysteries.

A lot of thriller writers, I feel like, are doing things now where they’re like, have the hardcore thriller or horror thing that they do, and then they like, go to the lighter side. For

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: sure. And honestly, I think it’s so important because in some ways, there’s something grim about it, taking such a wholesome setting or, like, wholesome set up, for a book, and then, like, dropping a murder in there.

But I do think that, like, television and things like that have been doing this forever, right? One of my favorite movies is the 1980s Clue movie, it’s almost like the murder is, a joke, right? Like, Mr. Body, like, it’s something about not taking yourself too seriously, and I think that there’s something in 2023 that is just appealing about that, you know?

Like, it’s been a rough ride. There’s a lot of, like, real serious stuff out there, and not that I don’t think people should be writing about heavy hitting topics, because I still read a lot of that. too, but I [00:26:00] also feel like some days, you just do want to be like, you know what things could be worse.

And like a bookshop, bakery, movie store, whatever, like, silly grandma’s solving murders, like, I’m into it. Whatever it is, there’s something about it these days that’s like really scratching some kind of itch for me.

David Gwyn: So, so let’s talk about these, this opening, not quite 500 words here.

What do you see as the biggest strength of this opening

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: Yeah, I mean, so I’m always looking for three things in, you can tell I’m like a list person because I’m like, here are the things I look

David Gwyn: for in a page. I love that too. I’m glad.

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: Well, I do feel like so many, so much of this is not transparent in publishing, right?

We like don’t come out for some reason and tell people what we want very often, which, yeah, for me, that’s just. silly. So I try and do it as often as possible to counterbalance. But yeah, the three things I look for are always like an introduction to a main character. Like, I want to know who, like, even if it’s not the point of view character or whatever, like, I want to [00:27:00] know who this story is really about.

Like, who do I need to care about and why? And part of that is just because, like, I’m a very character motivated reader. So, like, when I’m reading a story, Like, the plot is not going to matter very much to me if there’s not some sort of character that I’m, like, intrigued by in some way, and I don’t know, I mean, I know that’s not true for every reader, but even in, like, everything from, like, literary to horror or whatever, there needs to be somebody I find really interesting, so I’m always looking for that person.

And then, the second two are kind of tied together. The first is that I really like to know… Like, I like to be introduced to the central conflict, , right away, , from that first page. And part of that is because, I do think that there is a taste among readers right now for really immersive work.

So, it doesn’t really matter what you’re writing. People want to dive in headfirst. We don’t want to, like, ease into stories very much these days. And whether that’s, like, something wholesome and soft and gentle or something that’s, , really action packed or whatever, like, you kind of want…

whatever that is to be, like, an [00:28:00] explosion, , right from the beginning. I want to, , smell the meadow if I’m in a meadow, you know what I mean? So I’m always looking for that central conflict because I want to know, where are we going with this thing, like, right off the bat. And then, sort of like an accompaniment to that, it’s the sweet spot if authors are able to kind of hint at, , the challenges that a character will face and the things that will help them, like, through this story.

So, the one, the example I always use, which is, like, if people have heard me talk about this before, they’re probably getting bored of this example. I need a new one. But I always say, like, wealth is one that, I think is really, easy to kind of weave into a first page in a subtle way. You can nod at whether a character is like a very, like, moneyed sort of character by, like, what they’re wearing, what kind of car they’re getting out of, what neighborhood they’re in, , how they’re reacting to things around them,

You’ll never see, a woman with Louboutins, like, Not cringe if she like steps on a piece of trash, you know what I mean? So like it’s an easy one to kind of show like, oh, this person has a lot of money or conversely [00:29:00] Like it’s easy to show, you know If somebody’s stomach is rumbling because they skipped lunch like because they couldn’t afford to buy it it’s easy to show when people are kind of impoverished too And that’s something that in the real world like As much as in books, like, helps and hinders people in various situations, right?

So, I mean, I’m not saying wealth is always an advantage, but in a lot of books, like, if you’re not worrying about the material reality that you’re in, then, like, that’s a pretty big advantage compared to some characters. So, yeah, I like to know, kind of, like, okay, what are we working with in terms of capacity, and it doesn’t have to be money.

It can be, power can be, like, social connections, , if this person is, like, super anxious and unhappy, , why are they feeling that way? What is it that’s, stopping them from, like, getting out of that feeling? So those are the three things that I’m always looking for.

But that said, the one of the things I really like about this book in terms of like the conflict and the immersiveness is that like I think the vibe that she’s promising from that summary like starts right away [00:30:00] from that first sentence where it’s so specific in the description of the bike, and I feel like that’s one of the things that, like, what kind of bike somebody has, like, I can picture being a kid in the 90s and, like, checking out people’s bikes, you know, like, you can kind of, like, you can get a lot from, , that one line of description about, , who this person is, , what they’re going through, and that’s, , just the first sentence, so I think that In terms of like the characterization and the conflict and all of that stuff, like flushing out a setting can be really, really beneficial because you really get a feeling from that setting of where the character is in the world and what’s going on for them, which is awesome.

That was a lot.

David Gwyn: No, that’s great. No, that’s fantastic. Was there a line in particular that you, that you read and you thought? I, so for me as a reader, and then I’m going to come back to this question, because I don’t, I don’t think of it, I don’t think in the same way that an agent does or even an editor really, I think of it like a reader, like a writer.

And the thing that I’m always think is [00:31:00] so interesting is when I read these, sometimes people are rushing and you can tell they’re like, yeah, this is like a submission. They’re trying to get to it. And then there are. Writers that you read and you’re just, they’re patient. Like there’s a cadence, there’s a smoothness to everything.

Like they’re not rushing, but they’re not taking their time. And this submission really felt that way to me, that there was action, but it wasn’t rushed. There was characterization, but it wasn’t slammed into the first paragraph. And I just, is there something that you read that you thought Okay, like, this writer clearly has a handle of the character setting or time period or whatever it is.

Is there something that stood out to you?

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: Honestly, like, so the thing that stood out to me is that the writer knows how to start in the action of a scene without, like, hitting you over the head with it, which I think is really, really difficult to do. From the first couple lines, like, there’s already stuff happening, but it’s not like I’m being told, like Mr.

X did this on this day at this time, you know, because I do feel like sometimes the tendency is to kind of [00:32:00] info dump right away so that people can be like, look how much is happening, look who all it’s happening to, like, we’re, whereas, , this author really did a good job of, , starting with details that are really specific and really well thought out, and you can tell that, she’s taken the time to kind of sit and be like, okay, how will this feel?

Like, talking about the fact that like, the second line about the leaves, and then the leaves keep coming back, this is a cozy mystery,, it’s a commercial book, it’s a murder mystery, and yet, like, you’re taking the time to tell me about the fall leaves? Like, I’m already there with you, you know what I mean?

Because it’s also not like she’s like, the leaves were red on the trees. And then she just moves on, , she’s clearly taking the time to really paint, like, a full picture, because she talks about the leaves in that first paragraph, and then a couple paragraphs later, she’s talking about, a leaf catching her attention, and then , the bike slips on the leaves, like, she’s already building themes in the first page, which is, like, that’s pretty impressive from, like, a literary perspective, and this isn’t even a literary book, [00:33:00] so, like, I really appreciate when authors take the time to really…

Think through their first couple of pages and make sure that they’re like not only giving me all the information so that I Can check the boxes, but also so that they’re like Enjoying enjoyable to read on a line level, you know and I always tell people that’s the thing honestly at westwood I’m, probably the most commercial of our agents I would say But I think despite the fact that we’re all so different and I think that’s true in a lot of agencies You know, you don’t want to be competing directly with each other too often But the thing that kind of unifies My agency is that we all really like, , line level writing.

That’s the thing that we look for, I think, as a group. And it’s one of the things that when I bring a new client to the agency for them to really be like a Westwood author, like, and be able to kind of like fit into anybody else’s client list at our agency, like that would be the thing that they would be looking for is , are you a good writer? Just like, regardless of what it is you’re writing, like, can you tell me about a leaf and make it interesting, [00:34:00] you know?

And so, yeah, when I was reading this, I thought that like it. Strikes a really good balance between narrative action and dialogue even in just a page there’s a lot being kind of accomplished in there and it feels to me at least that that would take a lot of like editing and a lot of time to get to that point so I found that really impressive.

David Gwyn: So you’re gonna read some more of the submission at some point, and so what are you hoping to see in the next, even just five to seven pages or

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: so? Yeah, I mean, I hope that that attention to detail continues because there’s nothing more sad than when you start reading a book and it’s got like a real good vibe and then it kind of falls off in favor of just plot.

It sounds like I’m saying that because of the genre, but like, it happens in every book. Like it can’t happen, I should say, like regardless of the genre or something, like the worst is when you get like delicious first pages and then something, something happens and the author just thinks that that’s not worth the energy or something.

And, you know, all of a sudden you’re just left with plot or just left with [00:35:00] like description or whatever. So I love those little details that really give things. flavor. I want to know, maybe this is like a 90s kid thing too, but this white van business, like, I’m like, all right, tell me more.

You know, we’ve all been conditioned to look for the creepy white van. Like that’s been like, you know, that’s a staple in like the 90s. And I also want to know more about the video. The video store and like what’s happening there because as much as that’s a cool setting like I kind of want to know why they picked it and like where they’re going with that because I love it when the setting plays a role in the story and that’s such a rich setting and it’s such a specific one that I think if that Sort of is interwoven with the plot line.

That could be really, really interesting. So yeah, those are the kinds of things that I’m looking for. And also, I think this character is really charming. Like, they’re just kind of a mess and like a little bit quirky already in the first page. And I love that. So, like, who doesn’t love a messy main character?

Truly. Right.

David Gwyn: [00:36:00] I feel like with all genres, you’re trying to strike a balance between. Reader expectation and unique premise, like where, where do you strike that, you know, this is a new interesting thing, but packaged in a way that you know what to expect when you pick it up.

And so I’m curious, are you, are you ticking off boxes in your head? This is a cozy mystery because X, Y and Z,

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: I think that some genres have a lot of wiggle room in terms of like what you can accomplish in the book. And there are some genres where like, if there’s one thing I’ve learned from romance writers, like formulaic is something that readers love, it’s, that’s not to say that you have to like follow, a very specific roadmap and do everything exactly the same, but there are some genres where convention is like, really valued, and I’m one of those readers. I’m the type of person that like, if I like a TV show, I’ve probably watched it, 48 times.

Like, I’m not the type of person who like, sits down and goes for like, something new and adventurous on a [00:37:00] menu, you know what I mean? If I like a sandwich, I’m going to get the same sandwich every single time I go to that restaurant. I’m only going to that restaurant for that sandwich, and if they don’t have it, I’ll be sad, you know?

Like, and so, like, I totally empathize with, , readers who are going into those genres wanting that familiar feeling, you know what I mean? So, even though this is, like, a really cool, like, hooky premise, definitely cozies are one of those genres where I sort of think of it like a road map in the sense that like there are certain kind of landmarks you have to hit.

And I think pacing is one of those. You know what I mean? Like people expect a certain cadence from Cozy Mysteries about like when things are going to be revealed, when there’s going to be like a little twist, like that kind of thing. And there’s something about like the voice as well that I think is really unique in this sample and I hope that it can sort of carry through because they tend to be like a lot of commercial books, like very voicey, but in a very specific kind of, there’s almost like a stereotype.

I would say like kind of like an archetype that a lot of authors work from, and I think you sort of have to fit into that mold a [00:38:00] little bit. You don’t want to stray too far from expectations when it comes to a real niche genre like this. So yeah, that’s not necessarily true if I was reading like an upmarket book or like a sci fi book or something like that.

But when it comes to, more formulaic genres, for sure, there are some, like, checkboxes in my head that I’m like, okay, good. Like, covered, covered. Because otherwise I know that I’ll send it out to editors and they’ll come back and say, like, this is great, but, and so those are things that we would have to figure out in editorial, you’re always weighing, like, the risk versus the benefit, right? Like, can the author accomplish the edits that would need to be done? How long would it take? How much effort would it take for them? Would it pay off for them in terms of the work versus, like, you know, compromising on their vision?

So, yeah. Yeah, it’s so

David Gwyn: interesting. I could talk to you for hours. This is, it’s always so interesting and I’m always like over here like taking notes.

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: I’m so glad. Sometimes I worry because I know that like the agenting side of publishing can be so businessy, I think if I was listening to myself as a reader in some ways it sounds [00:39:00] awful, you know, like I hate to think that we’re like trying to fit into a mold or whatever, but, there are just things that, you know, publishing is very risk averse, and so you have to kind of, stake your bets in a way, you know what I mean?

You have to choose the battles that you’re going to fight with each submission, you don’t want to take every risk on one project because probably it’s not going to pay off. So you want to make sure that, you’re only taking as many risks as…

might be worth it for the author, right? You don’t want to put them in a position where they’re going to fail. So you want to kind of pick where you’re going to push the boundaries and also think about like places where you could like maybe nudge it into a direction that’s a little more expected or like a little more acceptable to a general reading audience.

Because I have just had my heart broken by acquisition boards one too many times, I think. And so I like, I could almost tell you what the marketing people, I’m sure, say at that table, and if I could take them out of the equation, a lot of times I would, but I can’t, so.

David Gwyn: It [00:40:00] sucks that it’s a business, but it also has to be a business.

That’s the only way it works. Like, you have to, you have to be able to justify Whatever price you’re gonna put on it so that a reader will buy it. Otherwise, you know, you’re just not going traditional publishing and that’s fine,

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: too. If you were asking my advice for like, independent publishing, it would be totally different.

But for traditional publishing, yeah, like, we’re not looking to sell like, 25 books. We’re looking to sell, like, 2, 500 books, and so how do you get this story that, like, is created by one person’s, , imagination to appeal to that many people, you know, and to be really exciting for that many people?

And that’s, like, its own special kind of challenge, I think. Yeah.

David Gwyn: So my last question for you is just where can people find you? Where can people look you up? I don’t know if you’re open for queries right now, but it sounds like maybe

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: Yeah, it’s coming. It’s coming. It’s going to happen I’m closed right now, but it’s because I have I actually have like a backlog of [00:41:00] queries that has built up while I’ve been closed that I want to get through before I reopen because it’s just, like, these poor souls.

I owe some of them feedback and things like that, so I just emailed them this week to be like, guys, I’m so sorry. Because, yeah, it’s been a minute, so this summer was, like, a little bit bonkers, and I’m… Clearing things out before I open my doors to new things. But yeah, just by referral for right now.

So if people are friends with my clients or something, then that’s the way to get to me, but otherwise please wait because you will have more of my attention later. But yeah, in terms of where you can find me, I have my own website at emmy. o o o, Emmy, ooh, you can also find me through WCA anytime and I’m actually not on social media right now.

I’m, like, going through a moment in my life with social media so you can probably find me, like, quilting in my back room. Other than that but yeah, I haven’t decided yet where I’m gonna go in this, like, maybe post Twitter world? I don’t know what that is, but if somebody has a magical answer for me, like, please let [00:42:00] me know, because I would love some guidance on that.

That’s great. Yeah, I’ll,

David Gwyn: I’ll link to that stuff, especially your website. That’s, that’s really,

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: that’s really great. Yeah, that’s sort of like my home base. I feel like wherever I go on the internet, I, I have always had that. Oh, and I have a page, of course, on Manuscript Wishlist as well. So I do, even though I’m closed right now, my wishlist is still, like, up to date.

So if people are looking for kind of my interests more generally, then yeah, they’re always there. Yeah,

David Gwyn: and I always, I always like to ask anyway, even if you’re closed, because I never know when people are going to stumble across this. Exactly.

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: Totally. And hopefully by then I’ll be reopened.

David Gwyn: Great. Well, Emmy, this has been amazing as always.

It’s so much fun to talk to you. I feel like I learned so much and I really appreciate you taking the time to share

Emmy Nordstrom Higdon: that. No, you have like great submissions and great questions. So it’s totally my pleasure. I really appreciate it.

David Gwyn: Okay. So that’s it. I always love having Emmy on because their ability to clearly articulate why something is working in a story is so helpful. They also have a wealth of [00:43:00] industry knowledge that makes interviews with them.

So interesting and compelling. If you haven’t signed up for the five day email mini course where I share everything I’ve learned about hooking an agent with your opening. Do that now it’s linked in the description and it’s filled with actionable steps.

You can actually use.

Next time on the podcast, I’ll be talking to a best-selling author, Catherine McKenzie, about her new novel. She’s going to share her writing process and how she expertly balances, multiple timelines and points of view.

Catherine McKenzie: I call myself a pants store, but I’m probably really more of a hybrid.

So I don’t write long detailed outlines, but I do spend a lot of time thinking about the book. And I always know the end before it starts. Often I see like an end scene. And then I, I know some of the big twists slash secrets that people have.

David Gwyn: You’re not going to want to miss that episode. So be sure to subscribe. So you catch that as soon as it comes out. I’ll see you next week.