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🗓 Previously…

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🎙 Interview

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📇 Biography

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📜 Transcript

Alex Kenna

Alex Kenna: [00:00:00] if a reader is going to be invested with a character, you kind of want to show enough of the positive things about them so that the reader will give them permission to start having some major flaws.

David Gwyn: Hey, everyone. Todays episode is an absolute must. Listen for any aspiring thriller writer. I’m joined by Alex Kenna, the author of what meets the eye and burn this night. In this conversation, Alex dives, deep into character development, revealing the subtle techniques that she uses to hook readers from the very first page. In fact, we’re going to look really closely at some of her work and dissect what she’s doing, which was really fun.

So whether you’re struggling to write believable characters or just looking for that edge to make your writing stand out, Alex’s insights here are packed with actionable advice that you’re going to love. Last time on the podcast. I talked to Elle Grawl

Elle Grawl: my philosophy was, and it still is, I think you should do whatever you need to, to get draft finished.

David Gwyn: L shared how to develop complex characters, craft, suspenseful, plots, [00:01:00] and overcome self-doubt as an author. That episode is linked in the description. If you want to check that out. Okay, let’s talk about today’s guest.

Alex Kenna is a prosecutor and an avid Sunday painter. She lives in Los Angeles with her husband, son, and giant schnauzer. And by the end of this episode, you’re going to walk away with tools to elevate your craft. So let’s get into the interview.

Alex, thanks so much for being on the Thriller 101 podcast.

Alex Kenna: Yeah, thanks for having me.

David Gwyn: Yeah, I’m really excited to chat with you. We got to talk about what meets the eye a few months ago and

now we’re back talking about your new book, Burn This Night, which, which will be out by the time people hear this. So first, congratulations.

And second can you tell us what it’s about?

Alex Kenna: Yeah, so it’s it’s the same main character from What Meets the Eye, the same detective, but it’s not, it’s not really a sequel. It doesn’t, it kind of doesn’t matter which one you read in what order, but basically my, my character learns that her, by her, the man who raised her was her biological father, and there’s kind of a genetic hint, and she learns that she is through a website, basically, that she’s , distantly [00:02:00] related to the killer in a cold case.

And then she ends up kind of getting pulled into that investigation and at the same time hired to look into a recent arson murder in this, in this, in a small town. And then in the arson murder involves a trio of siblings. There’s a brother who kind of just, Destroys his brain with meth throughout the course of the book and then a fire started which he’s blamed for which ended up killing One of his siblings and then so there’s two different murders going on at the same time and they’re kind of interconnected in strange ways

David Gwyn: Yeah yeah, very cool. And I, I’m, I have some, I have a lot of questions about,

like, The process of building out Kate, which I think is, is such an interesting

character, but also just the, the

process that you went through, but where did this ideas come from? I mean, was it, because I know it’s not a sequel, but

it obviously has the same main character.

Was this something that came up as you were writing? What meets the eye? Or is it something that came up after?

Alex Kenna: It was definitely, it was totally after, I, I wasn’t really sure where I was gonna go after What Meets The Eye, and honestly, we we had been doing some work on our house, and we were staying in [00:03:00] an Airbnb in this beautiful mountain town, and I, you know, I was bouncing, you know,

my, my oldest, who’s a baby at the time,

around and, you know, thinking like, Oh, this would be a beautiful place to kill someone!

You know, as one does. And so I was sort of thinking about setting a murder in a small town kind of just as a change of pace because what meets the eye is a total L. A. noir. And then I, I sort of started thinking about this this trio of siblings. And I also at some point had wanted to kind of explore what meth does to a human brain because as somebody who’s worked in the criminal justice system for a decade, you see it, all the time.

And it’s really a story that doesn’t get told a lot. So I have a lot of flashbacks that kind of explore what happens to the character, Jacob, who’s eventually accused of this murder. So I kind of just had a lot of different ideas floating around in my head. And then I ended up in this beautiful place and thought, you know, let’s kill some people.

David Gwyn: Yeah. as, as a writer always does, always seems to do right.

Alex Kenna: Yeah.

David Gwyn: Cool. So what are you working on now? How much can you tell us about what is on your plate these days?

Alex Kenna: I’m kind of working on [00:04:00] two standalones and kind of going back and forth. So one is, Set in the horse racing world. ’cause I live pretty close to a racetrack. And it’s, it’s kind of a fascinating subculture. And the other one is set in

the the Los Angeles criminal Justice system because I was a state prosecutor for seven years.

So I’ve just kind of been going back and back and forth between those. And and weirdly it takes a lot, it takes some of the stress off. ’cause you’re, and you’re only working on one thing. You know, that is your only baby and everything goes into it and, you know, you start thinking, Oh my God, is everything terrible?

And then, you know, you can take a little break if you, if you start having a head trip and start working on, on something else. So

David Gwyn: Oh, that’s very cool.

Alex Kenna: yeah.

David Gwyn: Yeah. that’s really cool. And, and I’m assuming that this is kind of your first time doing that with having two projects that you’re working on at the same time.

Alex Kenna: Yeah. It’s usually it’s, it’s just one, but I’ve been kind of, you know, working intensely in one and then going back and working intensely on the other one. And cause I’m going to see which one is, is finished first.

David Gwyn: Yeah, that’s awesome. Very cool. So I, like I mentioned, I do want to, I want to dig in here and talk about Kate as a [00:05:00] character. Cause I think we, we talked a little bit about her last time, but I think she has such a

unique and interesting character. And so I’m really curious about your process for finding

her voice.

I know you’ve Obviously, this is now the second book that you’re working with her. Did you find that you kind of like fell right into her voice because

it was something that you had done for a book? Or did you have to navigate and

find it again?

Alex Kenna: It wasn’t so much that I had to find her again, but I was kind of putting her through a different. Because she, she learns at the beginning of, the book, basically, that

I didn’t want to use, just kind of make that like just a plot device. It got me thinking like, well, what is this experience like? And I went down the rabbit hole. I was listening to all these podcasts and all going on these, all these blogs of people who had that experience and like, you know, the rug was pulled out from under them.

And all of a sudden, you know, their sense of reality that they knew is just a little bit shifted. So I, Well, I spent a long time trying to kind of get a sense of that experience and then see how that would [00:06:00] would translate into Kate’s character and also when it starts out, she has put her house up for Airbnb to try to save money for a custody dispute, and she’s living with her mom, who’s a good person, but they just have nothing in common so you know, as, as Anybody in their, you know, in their late thirties who’s suddenly moving back in with with their parents in the suburbs.

It’s it’s not the dream So that was kind of another experience that I was trying to you know, it figure out how to embody But yeah, so, you know as a as a central character She hasn’t changed hadn’t changed too much, but she was kind of going through different things

David Gwyn: I think that’s really interesting how much, I mean, and I don’t even know if this question will make sense as I’m asking it, I’m kind of navigating it, but

Did the voice feel the same to you even though they, she was in these kind of like different situations or did it feel like you got like a different version of her in this particular story?

Alex Kenna: I think she felt more dislocated, and so I[00:07:00]

think that maybe she was a little bit more reserved. Somebody who had read both books had told me that they thought she seemed a little bit

snarkier in the first one, which I think was, which probably makes, would make sense for a person, because in the first

one, she’s in her own house.

she had, She quit her job as a police officer and started over, but she still was more in her element. Whereas in this one, she’s she’s had this insane discovery. She’s in her mom’s house, and then she’s in the small town, and she’s just in a totally different a different environment.

So it’s yeah, I think she’s, she’s essentially the same person, but also behaves a little bit differently just based on the fact that she’s sort of refinding herself.

David Gwyn: Yeah, I think that’s really interesting and I think it gives her a more like well rounded character feel because as she’s having these new experiences and situations and emotions like. Her she’s reacting to them. And I think that that’s really interesting. And I think like you mentioned for people who’ve read both you start to like pick up on the like different feel

Okay. I want to pause there for a second, because [00:08:00] what Alex has shared is so important for thriller writers. So how can, the thing that your characters going through impact how they interact with others? This is definitely worth thinking about it. I’m actually rethinking a project that I’m working on now because my character is in a situation that should make her feel uncomfortable. And she does see this at times.

She acknowledges it. But am I showing it enough? Am I revealing it in her interactions with others? Yeah, I guess I’ll have to go back and look. But here’s my challenge for you. Think about the situation or environment your character is in.

How should those experiences impact how they’re feeling and how they’re interacting with others? Should they be confident or are they a little bit more unsteady?

Should they come across as shy or embarrassed? And how will that translate into their dialogue, their feelings and their actions.

Okay. In the next part of the interview, I read a short section of Alex’s new book burn this night, and then I quiz her on it while we dissect it [00:09:00] together. So you’re going to love this. So we’re gonna get back into it.

But before we do, if you like this next section of the podcast, I created a one-page downloadable breakdown of the work, Alex and I talk about on her writing.

That one pager shares insights from the podcast, but also some other advice and suggestions that we just didn’t get to cover. So, if you want to really understand how the top writers are getting it done on the page. Be sure to head down into the description and grab that free resource. So you could see a more in-depth dissection of what Alex Kenna is doing in her book. Okay.

Let’s head back into the interview.

I did want to I didn’t want to ask you about I don’t even think it’s a full paragraph But I’m gonna I’m gonna read it for people because I I think it is such a cool way of developing her as a character.

And I think you did like so many things in a very small space of time. Like I mentioned, like, I don’t even think this is a full paragraph. As you introduce or like reintroduce Kate to readers here. And I think it was just really well done. So I’m going to [00:10:00] read it. And then I’m going to ask you a question about it.

I’d rented out my dinky LA teardown on Airbnb and was saving every penny for a lawyer. It’s amazing what people will pay to stay in what’s essentially a dump in a trendy location. Hopefully, after six months, I’d have enough money to take my ex to court and get my kid back. Amelia, my daughter, lives with her father, and I’m relegated to every other weekend. Never mind how all that came about. It’s been this way for two years, and now I was in a different place, a different state of mind, and ready to, fight to change the arrangement. But living at home and opening my

house to a parade of

strangers was turning into a nightmare. So my question

is This paragraph’s really early on in that, that kind of like first

chapter with her what do you think this did for developing Kate as a character?

Alex Kenna: I wanted to to get an Get to a point where you, a reader has, is quickly set set to the point where of everything that happened in the previous book without kind of just doing info dumping. So I sort of consciously thought, okay, well, [00:11:00] what information do I need to convey and how do I convey it as quickly as, as possible?

And I, I also wanted it to kind of be relatable people don’t necessarily have moving back at home, you know, on their plan for when they’re in her. her position and her age. And so I wanted to get that sense of she’s antsy.

She wants to get out of there, but she’s also trying to do what she, what she needs to do. And also that you know, she, she may not be in the world, the best place in her life, but she’s also sort of actively fighting to improve things and making sacrifices to try to make things better. I

David Gwyn: Yeah, I, I feel like to that like backstory, even like there’s a, there’s a line here, never mind how that all came about, I thought that was like so well done because I feel like so many times I read a lot of writers who are, who want to be published and a lot of times they struggle with like what backstory to put in and what not and I think this, this is really well done.

That particular line that never mind how all that all came about is so well done because it tells you her about, about her as a character, like her, that’s such her voice. And it’s also like, okay. Making me want to [00:12:00] know what, how that all came about, right? So like, I think it’s like doing two things at once.

I think like anytime you can get a line like that in where you’re giving character, but you’re also like doing something for a reader to be propulsive, I think is really, really powerful. And the other thing I wanted to point out was this some word choice here. So like, you’ve got like dinky, tear down, a dump, relegated, which does so much

like voice work for you.

Were those words, is that word choice something that you

found It was like in there right away, or did you feel like you had to go back and revise even these early paragraphs, especially

where you were trying to

do two things, which is like get people up to speed, but also

developer voice?

Alex Kenna: think those words probably stayed in there, but I did, I definitely do a ton of editing. I’m a really fast writer, but an obsessive editor, so I don’t even know how many times I’ve read everything. But I would say for that, that sentence you were talking about before, I think also like one thing that I would think about as a writer is if a reader is going to be invested with a character, you kind of want to show enough of the [00:13:00] positive things about them so that the reader will give them permission to start having some major flaws.

And Kate, I mean, she, She got addicted to pain pills and was in a car accident with her kid in the car and ended up losing in custody So, you know if you start people out with that, you know People are gonna close the book cuz you know you you haven’t shown enough I think of the fact that she’s a decent person who’s done some who’s made some pretty terrible mistakes It’s just you if you just start out and you say hi.

I’m a terrible mother This is all these are all the dangerous things that I’ve done then You know, you’re not really building any rapport. So I think, the other reason for kind of being a little bit vague at first is, you know, what do you want to show right away? You want to show that this person has things under control, but is emotionally a little bit desperate, but is also trying to improve things.

And, you know, you kind of hint that maybe they have some flaws that are, but those don’t necessarily need to be shown until you’ve built enough rapport, I think, for, for readers to say, okay, well, you know, I, I kind of forgive her because she’s working on it.

David Gwyn: Yeah I think that’s really interesting and something that It is, [00:14:00] it does come out here like that, that work that you’re doing there. Especially early on for her to make her likable, even though she’s not like, you kind of mentioned this earlier, like she does come off as like snarky. She does come off as a little bit like cynical.

And sometimes those characters are are pricklier. They’re harder to like, they’re harder to just like jump in and like, and so I think like you’re taking this character who’s like done some stuff that probably she probably shouldn’t have and like trying, like making her likable even as she’s. You know, I don’t want to say unlikable because I don’t think that that’s it, but like not the typical likable character.

And then the last thing I do want to point to is, is the way you kind of set up a goal here which I think is really well done and it’s not necessarily one that becomes the entirety of the story, but it is something that like, as a reader you start thinking about, which is they’re like ready to, to fight to change the arrangement which sets up some tension of like, okay, like what is she doing over the course of the story to like, change that arrangement?

Is she headed in the right direction? Is she not? Like what’s [00:15:00] happening there? And I think that like the fact that you’re doing all of this in the confines of what is essentially a paragraph, which

is like setting up voice setting up tension, you know, doing some strategic backstory work and then like setting up something for us as readers to think about as like a potential goal for her, I think is, is amazing.

Again, is that something that like You knew you wanted in these early chapters.

Alex Kenna: I think I needed to kind of establish it early on

that she’s not satisfied with the, with the custody situation. In part,

again, it’s always tricky when you’re writing someone who’s

not a perfect mother. It’s, you know, culturally our expectations is, you know, either you put mom on a pedestal and she’s a saint, or, you know, she’s the nightmare who destroyed you as a human.

So if you’re, you know, if you’re writing about somebody who’s, you know, closer to column A, but not, not necessarily there. You know, you it has, it has, it can’t really be the stasis. It can’t just be like, okay, well, you know, I had this problem. I lost custody. That’s the end of it. I, you know, I see my kid and pat her on the head, you know, twice a month, if [00:16:00] there has to be some kind of goal to improve it.

And also, and you know, she’s somebody who feels things deeply and who cares deeply about her family, even if she makes mistakes. She’s a person who would be kind of working to make that improvement. And I, you know, with her, I was kind of also interested in, in kind of the tension between somebody who, you know, loves their family, but hates themselves and how, how that kind of works.

And just, there’s a, she has a pretty solid dose of self hatred, but not really in a, it doesn’t really express itself in kind of a In like a, a selfish, self centered way, she has to, she kind of keeps that under control in order to do the best that she can for her family members. So, you know, I, I think it both shows her goal, but I think it also shows something about who she is and where she’s coming from.

David Gwyn: Yeah, cool. My last question for you before we wrap up here is just When you

look back at the development and evolution of Kate’s voice over now it is two novels What do you think was the most like impactful or helpful exercise or [00:17:00] tactic that you used to really unearth her voice?

Alex Kenna: One thing that I thought about a lot with her was She’s, she’s a former

LAPD officer I thought a lot about female police officers who I, I had interacted with

and in the, I mean, she’s not really based on anyone, but there are people who I have interacted with who who I thought a lot about because I really wanted her to feel authentic.

And, you know, it’s like when people talk about research, like, I don’t really think readers care that much about like, you know, the, the tiny little nuances of police procedure, but if they’re reading about a character who has, you know, embodied a certain experience, you want that to feel authentic.

So that’s something that I thought a lot about. Like you know, what kind of words would this person use? You know, police officers curse a lot. I think when, you know, not on like on the record or anything, but, you know, just chatting. So you know, Kate doesn’t, I mean, she doesn’t curse all that often because I think, When you’re reading something things stand out much more than when you just talk.

And if you’re dropping F bombs all the time, you know, it just. Yes, but you know, she has a little bit more [00:18:00] informal way of talking and you know So sometimes I would think about that like because I you know I’m an attorney and sometimes I would you know, I slip in words that just didn’t feel authentic at all.

And and so that was something I thought a lot about You know somebody who’s has you know, she’s brave. She puts other people for herself. She’s definitely Not my alter ego. You know, like I have my three year old kill spiders for me. so yeah So just kind of thinking trying to think about People who had, you know, embodied a similar experience and how they talk and how, you know, what they think and you know, Is there another layer to what she’s experiencing that also needs to kind of kind of get into the writing? Was was something I focused on a lot.

David Gwyn: I think that’s a great place to end So my last question for you is just where can people find you? Where can people look you up?

Alex Kenna: Yeah. I’m on Twitter And Instagram and Facebook. I have a rudimentary website that is always on my to do list to get to get updated But yeah, so those that’s probably the the best place to find me.[00:19:00]

David Gwyn: Cool. And I’ll link to some of that stuff down below so people can find you, Alex. This was so much fun. I really appreciate you taking the time to chat.

Alex Kenna: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

David Gwyn: All right, that’s it for today’s episode with Alex, we explored how intentional word choice sheets, your characters, the power of intriguing lines over info doms, and why setting up character goals early is critical for reader engagement. Remember the best stories pull readers in by raising questions they’re eager to see answered.

Don’t forget before you leave to head down into the description, grab your one pager that breaks down everything we went over here and some other insights and actual advice that you can use in your writing. Next time in the podcast, we’re going to talk to Leslie Connor about how she kind of accidentally developed a series.

So if you haven’t subscribed to the podcast yet, do so now. So you don’t miss any episodes and I’ll see you next week.